More Than Just “Well-spoken” — with Rodney Perry

In today’s episode, I’m joined by podcaster and writer Rodney Perry. Together we talk about letting go of other peoples’ expectations and stepping into your creative power.

Tune in to hear us discuss: 

• How Rodney claimed the title of “Creative”
• Rodney’s journey to starting his podcast
• The implications of being told you’re “well-spoken”
• Microaggressions & “diversity” efforts in the workplace
• Rodney’s workplace experiences & deciding to leave his job
• The passive-aggressive structure of corporate culture
• Permission to do your own thing

Links & resources:

• Follow Rodney on IG @kings_memoirs
• Listen to Rodney’s podcast The Simply King Podcast
• Visit Rodney’s website Life as King
• Follow Mel on Instagram @mel_mcsherry
• Follow the podcast on Instagram @morethanjustpodcast

👏 This episode is sponsored by My VA Rocks, a virtual assistant agency that pairs you with the help you desperately need. Want to see how My VA Rocks can support you? Head to their website at myva.rocks to book a complimentary consultation call! And follow on instagram at @myvarocks

🙌 This podcast is supported by listeners like you! If you enjoyed this episode, we'd appreciate it if you could make a donation of any amount at this link. You rock!

Transcript

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And TJ listener are you a solopreneur who knows doing it all yourself won't get you to that next level, well before we start this epic episode let me tell you about our amazing sponsor my VA rocks my VA rocks is a virtual assistant agency that pairs you with the help you desperately need. They're wildly talented virtual assistants can pretty much do it all. From sales support grant writing speaker Outreach bookkeeping to graphic design copywriting and of course those administrative tasks we all dread, my VA rocks has the perfect support for you and honestly I have had several clients hire va's from my V8 rocks and I have personally not only seeing their business. Exponentially grow faster but I've also been able to see them fully step into their passion and have this renewed sense of excitement and their business, because no longer are they overwhelmed by all the things that they think they need to do they can fully just do what they want to do to create the business that they desire. So you want to see how my VA rocks can support you will head over to their website at my VA dot rocks to book a complimentary consultation call also don't forget to follow them on Instagram at my VA rocks. All right let's get to it. Welcome to More Than Just I'm your host Mel mcsherry on this podcast we share how we are more than just descriptors and titles that identify us and our lives our. And our communities in this safe common room space you'll hear stories of success and Lessons Learned From Myself and other. And change makers my intention is to inform connect and expand our knowledge so we can be mentally emotionally and financially. As we create the change we desire my promise is that from each episode you'll take away not only inspiration and a connection to someone you never knew before but also the encouragement the action steps and Missy. So you can create what you. Music. Hello everyone welcome back to another episode of more than just Mel mcsherry here and I know I say this probably every episode but I'm so excited to have my latest guest on Rodney Perry now I'm just going to give you a little background of how I know Rodney and then I'm going to let him take it from here but I met Rodney as we are both members of the refined Collective, and with refined Collective is is a digital Community where people of color women and members of the lgbtq I, plus Community can come together and Advance their businesses they saw this Gap in the purchasing power not only Within These companies but for these companies. And we met during an office hours absolutely just, Love's one already spending time with him and to since stalking him thoroughly on social media which y'all know I love to do I just absolutely love his storytelling and his content he also has an amazing podcast has I'm sure we will talk about but I'm just so excited to hear about you Rodney and here, you know again, how you are more than just so first and foremost thank you so much for being here and spending time with me I appreciate it thanks thanks for that you know invited me on I love this I don't, gets a guest as often as I would like to so I always it's funny how I put that out this year and I've guessed it on three podcast this year already just from just saying that and then putting a little bit of effort and I was like okay it's a lot more, and this was a organic I didn't even know what I feel like it's you know it's more of the more the energy that I kind of called in this year. Yeah I do first said well I'm so glad that you know I I received that call and was able whether you know consciously or not and an extended the invitation. So I always like to start off this podcast with asking you know. How are you what is the one thing that you kind of been narrowed down to and how are you more than just that. Mmm see I feel like yeah on the form I guess I answered it from a standpoint of create I think that is something I had to come in to claim for myself, I think people always kind of assumed it about me to a certain extent but I think I've always been projected. To be so many different things and I think ultimately it's usually something that's to the use of some type of practical industry like growing up I think I definitely being able to speak put on clothes speak well. Always pushed me into the category of oh you're good you should be a lawyer or you should be a politician or you should be all these different things that I had. True interest in for real and even when it came to me showing some sense of like. Interest in business is I'll yeah that's it that's it you'll be like a great you know CEO and not and I'm like really you know moving Shake corporate America and all these different things and it's just like yeah I don't do that either you know I never really had a desire, I really never had a desire to really go that route either and I think a lot of people put that on me because I was always. Assuming particular positions that kind of affirmed that for them about me I was always running for throughout grade school I was always running for some type of class, president or some type of council or board or whatever could be for whatever club and I think that was just me being involved and also just. I feel like I was winning everything so it was like I'm just keep trying my love and I just kept. Winning these different elections in these different positions and he boards and not at all so I'm like why not you know you supposed to. You know beef up your high school resume for you know for colleges and then once I got to college. I feel like I became what I would like to say the male Olivia Pope of my University when I became a very important person in my general like my class in generation. But I was very much a political you know I was in the hands of the politics of the school but I kind of did a lot of things in a roadway that I could do that a lot of people probably couldn't do just because I just, kind of figure the system out that it was like it's no reason for me to be an elected official I do way more I can get way more done, not being an SGA Then I then I can't I can do way more community service I can do way more dope creative events by not being tied to a particular organization, and I helped so much but so many people assumed a lot of things about me because of that so it was like oh yeah this is what you want to do you want to do this you want to do that I've gotten people thought I wanted to be a pastor or motivational speaker or a lot of different things, and I get that to an extent but ultimately. I was I was a you know a person not claiming my creative side for a long time I think I was always, putting myself in his secondary position as a single aoyama I'm a you know collaborate and producer I I helped creatives bring things to life and that isn't but I never claimed that for myself until I just kind of had that. I realize like damn I got a bunch of like notebooks that I just write in all the time I have. All of my friends are creative in some capacity and like an extreme way and I'm like. Dang so are they I'm thinking they hang with me because I'm just I don't know I'm thinking making up reasons that we cool because we're cool. But in reality once I like came to that Awakening and their realization, and is ask him straight forward questions like yeah bro I think we I think I ask you so many questions about a what you think about this. Hey what you think about this you know like you think it's because I don't think you a creative person that I don't think your opinion matters like no I think you want to most creative people I know you always got ideas you know, you know the only person I know who could probably I could come to you with an idea and you know how to make it happen wow there's so many creative people. Where they only have ideas they don't you know how to like make them real and like that is a part of the creative process how are you creating if you never if you just start an idea person so I'll tell ya I feel like everybody wanted me to be something that, served them. And ultimately I was really kind of trying to find a way to serve myself in a way that's so powerful and it's so. It's so crazy to me because listening to you know other people's stories and obviously sharing my own it's those little things that spark such a trajectory and what I mean by that is. It was a little thing quote-unquote of somebody to say do you know what you speak really well you should do this and you and your younger mind your younger self. Clinging to that almost be like there it is that's my thing and then trying so hard to match that. And it's not until we have a trusted person from the outside usually later life I know for me was definitely later life something White. Now dude like this is this is what we see and this is this is why we spend time with you but we still tend to go back to those. Original hooks mmm so what was your process and I don't know if process is the right word but. When you heard that from your friend of like now man you're the most creative person I know. What was your journey like after that like was there was there some quote-unquote reprogramming my what is it that you, what were your next steps after you started really letting that sink in yeah I think it was a process I think it was a journey because I think I didn't claim that I didn't call myself that at all for you and that was me at 20. One years old you know I'm saying like and coming into. And thinking retrospectively about all the creative things I did prior to like I knew how to draw and how to paint a new I've always loved just storytelling in screenwriting and, watching movies in like the technicality of certain things and certain things of always came easy to me to so it was. In my mind I thought of it in a very practical sense is I just learned how to I just know how to do things I'm adaptable I'm all he's very vague things that are, still these utility factors that help other people and not thinking of them to be truly just the description of my creative. Self you know I was detaching it from that so once I started to look through those notebooks that I was found and kind of organize I was like let me read some of the stuff I wrote over the years because I just wish for radically right things and these notebooks and I was like why did I keep doing this. And why don't I and why am I not so attached to this that I don't do it more intentionally more intentionally glad you just think I just had so many things in these notebooks of just like, long-drawn prozis and Lawn drawing like almost journal entries and things I like wrote with other people just to kind of get an idea out. Upon poems and things like that you know my damn life. I really am like a writer I guess I guess I am but it makes sense this yeah like like it was it was it made sense from a standpoint of me, having a I think what the process was next was it at recognizing and acknowledging all the things I was missing about myself, and also defining what it is that I'm attracted to about these particular crafts in these particular things and it took years you know that's it was a process but I think I realized like oh I've always kind of like language I've always been able to pick up, on certain things that came from just the act of speaking to other people I've always been able to like pinpointing what can excite people in conversation and keep that going you know and that was always my kind of like my internal, secret weapon when it came to just engaging and networking with people is to. To know and to pinpoint like oh because I knew so much I knew had so much random knowledge I love random facts. I retain a lot of a lot of things just from things are me back and it is extremely useless until his useful you know. Like it just is but I think because of that it also affords you the. Ability to be able to speak about a myriad of things at any point in time you can jump into any conversation, any point in time and I think for me I didn't realize how much of my conversation style and all these various things as well was aiding in me preparing to jump into the medium that I eventually jumped into. And that was a podcast like pot I think I think that was kind of the thing like I feel like every creative maybe when you do it at an earlier phase and age. You kind of realizing you know you're creative and eccentric person and then you find the medium that kind of you know you start with and I think that was why it was like that for me you know in the podcast came out of really kind of at the same time when I was my senior year in college. I had wanted to submit for radio show. See how so many people on campus we're just getting radio shows and I was like damn is that easy to get a real strong and go I can do this my mom is always set up boys let me let me let me let me go ahead and then I looked and just kind of surveyed the radio show student ran radio shows that were out there and everything was kind of in this like more like, Hip Hop Pop Culture talk Breakfast Club style of things you know and I'm like okay what if I give them you know something simple. Pants simply King but also like a bee like a Thursday night slide during like a good like maybe seven to ten when people are studying and I play like you know like Neo-Soul in like old R&B and just stuff that's like easy listening for for our study right and then I have like you know cool little segments and reoccurring things and my friend stretch was going to be like my music, supervisor and help me with the playlist thing and I let and I wrote as soon as I found out how easy it was to submit I was like okay cool I literally can't with a proposed in like two days. And submitted and they kept giving me the runaround tell me how to talk to like two to three to four of the people to get approval and they got to say so and they got to give me the green light and they finally gave me the runaround for so many months they finally approved my show in April. Of my senior year and we're talking about me Lily my last day of class is like weeks from then so I'm like okay so I'm not doing that and I submitted in October, the previous semester so I could have got my shield wow going it would have you know how to be silent like typical I don't know I didn't investigate past the point of like just kind of just curious yeah you know no yeah after like after several months as they got to April's I obviously they don't want to do it so it is what it is so when they finally hit me back with hey your show is approved and hit up these people you can start getting slats for the you know for the studio and dotted I'm like I'm not I'm not I didn't mean I don't think I reply to the email like no thank you I think I just let it go cuz I'm like. Lily my last day of class is three weeks from now and I'm graduating five weeks from now like I'm not doing this. No I'm yeah I'm fine but as you saw I let it go and then August of that year moved to Chicago. A my friend stretch brought it back up to me again it might surpass now he was just like hey I know you you know you share the idea for the radio show obviously for obvious. Have you thought about just like changing the format and doing a podcast. And I was like what's the podcast and I was in 2015 that was that was in 2015 before I think you know when podcasting was really starting to turn and like a lot of people were starting to really notice, and a lot of different people a lot of people a lot of money was starting to get made and be defined and being Quantified in podcasting around 2015. But a lot of people still wanting a lot of people of color definitely weren't into it, by way of being podcasters as well as podcast listeners and I'm like sure I looked into it seemed like something I can figure out it seemed like something I couldn't you know learn how to do. And I just did it was you know recording my first episode just with my mouth closed tomorrow, my laptop you know and just keep it going in it and just didn't know what it was going to be but I think it was one of the best Outlets I could find for myself because it made me because it was for one it was multi medium. It allows for me to be able to use my voice for the first time in a consistent Manner and and also be able to focus. Like almost make my thoughts extinct which I feel like I needed just in terms of Just My overall creative self being able to just focus on one thing and kind of you know complete. Whatever it is and just collaboration and really just collaboration I think I've always been good at collaborating with people in just being able to like, use all these things that I've done over the years in various ways for this particular medium was the perfect one for me instead of it just being like Oh yeah you just write every day oh yeah you just, shoot you just take pictures every day and that's it and you know you just it I need it I think I needed something that had to just some multiplicity 2 in terms of the creation of it when I do it all I did it I did I've done it all and I still do it all myself from recording to booking the gas to create an outlines to coming up with the cover art for the each episode, and I was more of a kind of person who challenged these kind of practice graphic design and get better at that and that's something that's definitely aided me a lot and getting better with it because I can like, quickly think of things are quickly find ways to like deliver the message and connector imagery to what I what the episode was like. And just meet so many people I have talked to so many people and I think about that all the time like damn I really talk to people who are. I've talked to folks from around the world I've talked to people from around this country and talked about so many different things you know and I really am glad that I stuck to my guns and didn't get it. Didn't it down so hard because I just kept getting proof that it was more me than anything you know like I think if I would have liked, made my podcast only about relationships are only about mental health care only about, something about pop culture I think I would have gotten bored I think I want to stop doing it because it would have it would have felt like I would have had to have created a bunch of other versions of the podcast just to feel truly fulfilled and I think it works, because I think people right who listen to my podcast have came to my podcast for different reasons. And it might keep up with those episodes that are similar to the reason why they came and I'm okay with it I'm not even mad because, it is what it is if you always listen to the podcast it seem like I'm talking about popular culture sure I have enough of them if you always come back for when I'm talking about relationship things cool have enough of them I'm gonna always kind of recycle these Evergreen and hot topics the way that I even approach things that are timely always try to approach them from Evergreen context, so it's like I want these things to age well and yeah funny enough funny enough I thought a lot of them have. That's so cool and I love a couple of things that you brought up one. I love that you talked a little bit about your process of what you do inside of your podcast because, with the people that I have ever interviewed so far everybody's been a little bit different I've had somebody on here who is a major delegator like they have you know if they can't do it they Outsource to somebody else I've had somebody or if they can't do it they decided just to not, put that as part of there, processor their creativity or what have you and I love with you you're like it excites me because it keeps me guessing and it keeps you and I are very similar that fact of I love learning new things, now do I learn them for myself personally do I learn them to effect where I can be an expert at it no but I love to learn new things and see how it can strengthen and when I hit you know my, limit with it or my cap with it then I you know disburse it out or what have you so I love that you want to do that and to give yourself the permission to do that and not out of a I have to or I should do this it's more of a now this this gets me excited because I can turn from being a host to now the graphic designer to now the editor and it hits all of those, different spots and the other thing that I love that you said is that you don't. Niche down that definitely was an inspiration for this podcast is that you know we get. Preach that so much as entrepreneurs as creatives as humans in general. That we need to be known for you know that one thing yeah. And I had a really interesting discussion with my brother the other day about how my business has has shifted and I now offer more you know spiritual guidance and life guidance as well as business guidance. And he was asking me if I felt that that. Negated me from certain opportunities because people who would see that more spiritual side or what have you different from what I had been you know fully advertising before. What I'd be missing out on opportunities and I was like you know I don't think it's narumi down I think it's expanding me because. They now see that I have these different facets and I don't talk about all of them in one circular moment it's I have this gift I like what you're talking about like I can do this and I have this tool and I have this gift, where I was going with this is you know. By exposing how we have different facets to ourselves does not deter us from any opportunities I think it just expands our opportunities. And so for those of you who are listening who are trying to like oh well you know. I want to be a creative but I you know love X Y Zed but it's not really you know I can't get paid for that like well not necessarily. However those are pieces of you that people will want to know because we. When you're when you're working with a solopreneur they're purchasing you what no matter what your service is no matter what product is they are perched they're purchasing you and so they want to get to know you and that is one of the things I love about you know your podcast and your social media is that. You're not a one-note wonder you're not a one-trick pony you have so many different facets even looking at you know the form that you filled out. Get a lot of different beautiful facets and I'm just curious it are there some. I feel like I want to I feel like I want to give you a platform right now where if there was one that you would want to talk more about today that you don't typically that you feel doesn't typically get the. Acknowledgement or the spotlight that it deserves for you what what would that be. Writing for sure I think it's the one medium that I'm the most anxious about the most perfectionist you know the most like tedious and perfectionist and the critical about. I think I'm I know I know I'm great in person I know I'm like great to like speak. In front of people and kind of or rate whatever it is whatever if it's information or entertaining or I think I said it in one of my first episodes of this year with my guest Quinn Townsend Riley. Who basically she's always been a poet she's always been spoken word artist and all these various things and she actually wrote out she actually released a of poetry album and she's Worthy. And I told her that if she's also published you know her own book of poetry as well prior to those prior to that album and I told her I was like I admire writers and people who publish books and published their works of their word so often because I'm so anxious to. And I think it's something about having a book and that you sent the sized your thoughts for however long. You've put them in in this in this one tangible thing and people feel it. From wherever they are whenever they are you know I think that's a very powerful medium, very powerful thing that is I think that's why books out are what they are think that's why you know the symbolism in the movie The Book of Eli really shows that that if we go through a whole apocalypse and information is something that now becomes very scarce and very vital. Just existence and just are known World Books will be the thing that helps us, understand each other and understand the lives do we live because somebody has took the time out to just observe and write it down when that's why I made sense also that it was the Bible of all things because it was just because it was speaking to so many different things but I feel, like I think about how. For instance the one of the 10 most popular books ever The Alchemist how I used to hear people speak about that book before I ready it's crazy and it's. I used to hear people speak about that book before I read it and. For a long time I think I've really only read a lot of like self-help and stuff like that. And that's what made people come to keep suggesting it to me so I was like okay so it's a self-help book right and I read it and I was like hey this is. This is this fiction you know I'm saying like this is a story like this next level this is not like hey this is what you need to do with your life it's not talking to me directly at all I was just telling me the story and so I was just like okay I see I see. Just thinking about all these other very powerful books that just tell a story and give a message people who have written autobiographies and they've really changed the way people thought and they're just talking about themselves, I've always admired that because I'm like I can always get on the mic I can always get in person with people in and they can feel me in the moment because it's like it's not just, their interpretation you know it's it's me also being there in front of them being able to do all the other things I can do to keep your attention. But if I could just send the size my words those words just being black on a white page, you don't know what I'm feeling you don't know what the tone is that I'm reading that I'm thinking of this from you have to you gotta read this from your perspective and feel whatever you feel from it like it or don't like it whatever it is but to be able to resonate with people from a distance, resonate with people in a, out of time and out of space because that's really what books really do you know like you could write a book thousand years ago and if somebody finds it and they just fill it you know they just feel it they just feel so moved by their inspired by it and it's just like yeah, he wrote this book and who knew you didn't even know who's going to fix somebody 1000 years from now, you didn't know that this was going to be still used as a Elementary example of some Doctrine or some discipline within education. Those things are like beautiful to me hey friend like in the episode Pretty epic isn't it. Well guess what this episode and all others have been made possible by financial support and contributions from listeners like you. So if you would like to continuously here how these epic humans are more than just. Go ahead and head over to our GoFundMe and make a contribution cool all right let's get back to the magic. Okay Ronnie so I want to take you back a second and retouch on something if you don't mind on something that you said at the top of the episode which was you mentioned how being well-spoken was kind of one of your first you know identifiers and I'm actually really curious have there ever been any like quote unquote negative experiences with you having that identifier and if so you know what what did you learn from it. Mmm I would say that from me the negative experience was that I could sense that they didn't expect it you know. And that they so if people kind of just Judge Me based off of parents I think they kind of are just waiting to see how I show up. You know on paper it says this my reference said that, I'm applying or I'm bringing myself into a space as if I know what I'm doing which I did but when I start to speak I could tell when I start to speak I can always I'm pretty I think I'm a pretty good you know I'll podcast so I think I'm good at conversation so I'm good at reading people when it comes to very them reacting to what I say. So I feel like I've been able to notice quite often throughout my life when people enjoy something I just said either they're going to verbally let that be known or they're going to. Lily let it be known from a nonverbal standpoint and so it's been many times almost in every single workspace that I've been in the commonality, has been to let me know like you are like the the moral center of the team like you keep morale high you're always you know you're positive your attitude is so great and blase blah and I think it was in certain moment it felt so basic. That they had to acknowledge that to me you know it was it was in it certain moment it felt like okay that's cool thank you appreciate it you know and I could always tell when it was coming from a place that was just a genuine observation, versus kind of being I don't know so simple what made you want to tell me that, you know like why you want to tell me that I'm like the peaceful guy or the guy who kind of keeps everybody spirits up you know because I didn't think I was alone in that I didn't think I was the only one being that way on our team's you know. On a team that have been on in different various jobs and places that I've worked so it was kind of interesting and I think always always kind of made note of it more than anything so it was. I think the great orators of the world for folks like you know, Obama and M LK and so many others had to publicly deal with this idea of being this articulate exception. And I think it's a real off-putting space to be in because it's like there's an expectation that this was something that was either hard to do a miraculous to be and it's not. Azra genuinely not I think half of it is just my voice I know that for a fact I know half of it is Jean Lee just how I sound. The way that I speak being just overall orientation of how I'm putting my words together and allow myself to project into the moment and timing and adding certain things and then there's an element of just individuality I love to just know random facts. You know I remember I remember being complimented in college one day there was like it was like Rodney I've likewise you jump into like so many random conversations I think you're the only person I know who's never intrude. Like you know anybody else who does that it's like damn we were talking yeah okay now what were you saying like that scene it was like show up and put your two cents in yeah without without much well how much do know but I think it's because of I love to learn new things I am on me being a podcaster is definitely made has like Amplified, that is an aspect of me I love to learn I'm open I'm very I'm very unrelated and I don't and I always see that as a point, did I kind of like to identify if there's a reason why I can't kind of open up a consider a particular concept I always be like okay let me go do some more research maybe I need to know more about its memory and to talk to somebody who, is living in this experience before I can literally truly play some true judgment on this you know, and I'm hoping because I want to learn I want to learn new experience I want to learn new culture I want to learn the the best way to say something on the best way to I just kind of just. Concert for catering to Proclaim whatever it is because I like language I like words I like speaking so the last thing I want to do is speak in a way that makes people not want to speak back to me. But I understand it that's not something that everybody really cares to do. So to me it's like if people got took the time to get to know who I am and got that specific on what it is that I did when I speak. I don't think I would ever take anything is offense when you speak to how I speak and what it what the impact of my words really are but to just simply say, you know you speak well and you know you do not like very basic level things as if you know. So many of us having went to college in and like there's so many you know there's rules and their syntax and semantics and grammar and all these different things with so many different things in the world that have rules there's no real true rules, unlike a person's voice and how they sound to other people you know, you can sound however you want to Sam yeah just make just make whatever you say cohering you know so to me I think to acknowledge that that's what it felt like it felt like a, too simple of a thing to bring notice to like you know you kind of you kind of walk straight you like Ewok. Upright and straight line like is kind of like yeah a lot of people do right you know a lot of people do anything are you acknowledge in like where is this space coming from is to become is it coming from a place of. That isn't what you expected and I'm some kind of passing your expectations. Oh and also what made you even start with any expectation at all because if I didn't sound like this at all I will hope you still think I'm doing a good job, foul was quiet and never talked to anybody at the job I will hope you still see me as giving a good report having a good rapport with everyone because I do my job. You know but I think that was a microaggression that I think I kind of had to steadily deal with throughout throughout my time just in overall working, Force because it was it was I thing you know I'm not a small man you know I'm saying I'm six feet and some change, I got broad shoulders a deep voice and long hair down my back you know so got a lot of different isms that you can kind of assume. You know yeah but I think you know a lot of people don't really genuinely understand or genuinely know why people show up in a particular way so yeah sure but I mean when it comes to just culture and worldliness and all these different things I probably have had more conversations to you and that's not from a bragging standpoint just because this is what I do so to kind of come to me as if I'm right to kind of give a microaggression that feels, like it's coming from a space of lag expecting me to not know a lot or expect me to not be as. I don't know have a lengthy vocabulary or interest in various different things or just being being able to keep up with culture and current events, that was a very common thing that I think will happen in those water cooler conversations is that. I just knew so much about what was happening in the world and everybody else was not because they yeah everybody has different things you know the average person who goes to a you know desk job just goes to work. Goes home they have a family to deal with their family they may have a show you know to go home watch Friends bench friends, now watching the new thing they don't have the not really up on social media they have it is really for maybe whatever their particular interest is maybe you know depending on their man or woman or have a particular interest or however they identify, they might have a you know particular interest that's based in there who knows. And then they go to bed and they start all over so yeah I get it it's a nice thing so me to show up to be in that same position as them to work alongside them and to kind of give a different dynamic. It is something that I think but also I think I never I never was the person that anybody felt like they could try. In that way either so I think it was a it was a dual element that was happening like they see me as this person who was, the moral Center in a person who kept some levity about the day and about the team and I was articulate and all these various things that they would describe me to be but they also kind of knew not to ask me certain questions either I think they didn't want to know I think because I think in that was the fear I think me being so articulate I think they didn't want to know how how well I would possibly speak about the current events that have happened that are very negative and they have kind of you know can't even go away from you know especially you talking about 2020 in and the various things that have happened in the past 10 years we'll just you know the rise of BLM and so many different, you know nationally known acts of just you know police brutality and so on and so forth my coworkers are never asked me about it you know and the ones that do, I think they do because they know me they taking the time out to get to know me they felt comfortable because we've hung out outside of work and they see that I'm a person who may give you the space and if I didn't want to I tell you I want I don't want to talk to you about that, that's not a me being yeah aggressive is just like I don't know how productive this conversation is going to be if I'm literally giving you. Like if they're based off the question that you asked me it tells me that you don't know enough so for me to even start to give my opinion you kind of have to know and have a, because I'm have to keep stopping I'm had to oh you didn't know that police brutality is this crazy in the world okay so Patrick Star let me tell you about how it's been for the past you know I'm saying 10 years in America like it right now yeah I'm saying yeah like and just that version of it not even from the span of the past, 50 to 60 to 70 years we could go even deeper with that when we talk about just race relations and things like that but if I just tell you about the last ten years I can give you so much information yeah and I just be a small piece of History, and so yeah I think that long-ass along that was kind of what the negative thing was it was more of an internal micro aggression that kind of had to recognize and deal with. Overall mmm it kind of just we got taken on the shoulder. Yeah I mean especially you know going back to 2020 and till now right I have a lot of amazing black friends and colleagues who you know, especially 2020 when they all of a sudden were like the resource and they're like we've been here all the time A and B were not your resource right we can be, a friend we can be a support we can be a soundboard but we're not your. Google but I do I know I really love to hear people's you know firsthand experiences so. I'm curious though because you were in the you're in the corporate environment right in 2020 yes so with the Nao well-spoken fluent black man. Did your corporate like did your higher-ups I feel like the best word is do they try to capitalize on you almost like did you, yes it's great I love that you're you know your co-workers had that report with you but for the the leaders that may not have really quote-unquote no neo but then identified you as this well-spoken black man. Did you ever experience any kind of like corporate capitalism on you as like, they're shiny light does that question make sense it does make sense and I think I'm definitely one of the best people to answer this because right before I left. I basically became like this tokenize black person with in the organization. So in 2020 so in 2020 rightness was Lily right as I'm you know months before I start to even initiate my exit strategy for I even think that I need to leave 2020 happens. And I have a friend who actually is you know who left actually before me, and like he left and went back to grad school and things like that who's actually finished by now shout out to Caleb, and he was kind of you know more of a company man than I was but it was because of the department that he was in you kind of had to be when you were a customer sales you're speaking directly to customer trying to get you know, these various accounts for me I was in Customer operations and especially since we customer operations to so I was very specialized team. And so we just had to that we were the next step after them you know the work in the account has been you know closed we are the ones who kind of operated from a yearly basis. So on just a day-to-day so. Basically the events of the George Floyd killing happens and the following week after you know there's been so much. You know happening after that. They responded just like every other corporate organization wanted to individually respond in some way to show that they care to be paid attention to give this some type of attention in some way shape or form because we also had an office in Minneapolis. So it's kind of like we know that it's and we office is down the office was downtown, so we talking about not too far away from where the actual incident happened and also definitely where the protests were happening so. We already you know by the time we were already all majority working from home I think the only people who are even going into the office. Where it and they had organized a town hall you know town hall to discuss. If it's that it seemed like it had really no real true agenda they just kind of wanted people to come in here and because are out what they felt about it. I didn't know that this was even a thing and only because it wasn't a it wasn't heavily. Advertise even internally that this was something that was happening hmm Caleb had to tell me that this was happening and Caleb was actually the proxy. For his manager who was trying to basically who was I guess brought in to be a personal kind of recruit folks for these types of things. For these kind of diversity efforts. And what he's saying Caleb told me he was like quote-unquote diversity efforts Caleb told me he was just like he asked him first did he want to be a part of these things inside I blasi blind I think he was the writing was already on the wall for Caleb that he was about to leave anyway. So I think you kind of just declined because he said he just didn't have the time or just didn't have the energy but and to his, manager followed up and said oh what about that your friend what about that guy the guy with long hair who you know you talked to some time to see him see him around I don't know his name but what about him. Man he was a real Rodney he was like he said he said he said I kind of smile he has because I'm like oh they don't don't even know you. You know I'm saying where they don't they really don't know you wow and like they don't know that if they if they if you really would do this then what they're getting you know. I'm like okay and I was like well I just let me know let me know what it is tell him whatever and so he tells you about this town hall is happening. And I kind of like we kind of like chat back and forth and they send me the link and I'm trying to get in and I can't get into this town hall and it wasn't just me it was like two to three other people who coincidentally were black as well, in an organization where it's not many of us couldn't get into this Zoom call. And I think it was because they had increased the numbers and change some it was something technical did they say I was the reason as to why but it was to me it was just like this is very. Like ironically just this is hilarious the oh I'm saying that we can't get into the conversation about a black man dying this is crazy you know, yeah Lily learned about this yesterday you know I'm saying like I don't know how long I don't know how impromptu this was but if I didn't hear this from somebody else I don't know if I'll even would have known about. Because it happened in the middle of the work day to write so it happens in the middle of the work day where everybody doesn't have the same type of workload and it's organization as you know, and any type of organization got people who got lighter loads people got heavier loads majority of the team in HR and obviously middle and middle and upper management have all a lot more free time to be in meetings and being. However long you know type of Zoom calls and things like that, my manager very lately made this exception I look like I think he sent me a they sent us all a message about it in the middle of it like that this is a thing that you couldn't you know participating so even he was late with the information. But nevertheless I get into this Zone call and answer probably about around like 200 people but is steadily increasing in number. And it's widespread look throughout the whole organization organization I worked for us to City area UPS so it's a pretty pretty big size its Logistics so it's a very very high earning type of Industry. So all different types of people basically all the HR managers all you know a few different c-suite level individuals in the room and a bunch of different you know middle and upper management individuals in various departments directors VPS of this manages sales, managers and operations all these different things. And I come in and I immediately hear a voice from one of my former co-workers who worked out of the Chattanooga office and he was you know very Kumbaya you know as a black man he was very Kumbaya in his speech you know his speaking and kind of, I was speaking to you know very positive very you know nonviolent type of resolutions that could happen internally and I thought I was nice that was cool but I and my head I'm like I'm really about to, this is where they at in this conversation I'm really about to mix this up you know I'm saying I'm really about to start a pot up a little bit Yeah and because it's like nothing there's no version of what I have to say that's going to be taken lightly you know there's no way for me to put this any way shape or form that can be taken as like, oh this that was something sweet to say you know so because we talking about literally maybe six or seven days after this event, went you know when public and everybody's talking about in every every company in corporate entity is trying to react to this, and some way shape or form so I raised my hand I wait for my turn and I come on I now have the space to speak and I Lily I have wrote down basically like three to four points, already as I was waiting to speak so I could just not forget. And I basically just kind of read them to fill in a lot of ways you know and I think in the best way though because it wasn't like, I said any because funny enough I didn't even have to give my own personal opinion it was just badly just counting and counting all the facts there were in this space in this time in this moment. The fact that you guys are doing is the very reactionary response. Obviously right but it's reactionary because I've been in with his company for almost three years I think by that time it was two years. I was like I've been in this company for two and a half years and I've never had I've never been invited I never seen any type of diversity efforts at all. It's companies been in this company technically has been founded since I believe own eye. And it has yet to be any type of situation about diversity and inclusion in anything or equity in some way shape or form since I've been here. So it's coming off very reactionary that you've now moving and wanting to be about diversity when the whole world has a corporate standpoint and Landscape are all trying to be about diversity now so that's first thing second thing I'm not sure who asked you to do this, but I want you to understand that the political is definitely personal when it comes to people of color. We don't mean for it to be it just the way it is I don't wear my hair as a political statement because I like it this way. Black women don't wear that wear natural hair because they want to fight the man they really just might like their head that way they don't shave it all off because they're trying to make a political statement if they just might like their hair that way somebody might not wear Hindi where you know where their various Hindi garbs and various you know traditional our jobs and things like that to work to just fight them power and fight them in that's what they choose to wear for themselves, the culture who they are as you know in their own identity it has nothing to do with the job. So what you're asking for us to do is now to engage with you for us to basically open up to let it be known for you to be in judgment. Of course I'm quote saying that you want to care and be in corporation with us in some way shape or form about dealing with this. This thing that really affects us more than anybody you know so we didn't I don't know who asked for that but I'm a good I'm going to say it for the people who maybe even said they wanted this we didn't ask for this, I don't think I'm old enough I think I'm bold enough to say that because now you're putting us in an uncomfortable convert an uncomfortable position to now have to judge you based off what you say you're going to do we didn't have to do that prior to this point. We already have to manage that on our own on a day-to-day basis that we kind of come into work every person of color comes into work kind of already being able to assess that they care about us and they. Those things are not deal-breakers for us though because if we did that very very African-American walked around America and was like I'm not going to work that unless they like black people we would not work. And I have jobs so we have to manage that and manage that confliction with ourselves so now that you wanting to put this in the Forefront of our conversation. Of quote-unquote a practice that you want to bring into this organization. Now we have to judge it if you said that you're going to make a difference you're going to take a serious you're going to hear us out. And then there's pushback there's some type of oversight they're saying if you say anything likely of can you do something else we can't do that. Come up with something else now you're not now it's getting difficult now it's getting hard because we can just make up in our minds that. It's just microaggressions it's a bunch of ignorance is a bunch of misunderstanding, it's real hard to convince ourselves When You're just flat-out showing us that you don't care when you can flat-out see that there's racial motivation and these policies or even in the rejections of the proposed policies. That is not going to go well the over the turnover rate is going to go get higher because going to get even more uncomfortable to work here because so many people going to show themselves and lastly how ready are you to commit to all the things that you say you're going to do. You need to say what it is that you want to do and how you want to be involved and stick to that and don't deviate if you just want to donate money to organizations and want to know which ones that seem viable to donate to cool that's where how you want to be a part cool, if you want to be out on the streets and really be really truly on some activism okay don't think that's gonna really be sustainable but sure, and also it shouldn't be all on us should be honest to figure this out we don't know what needs to happen either. We're not asking for more work we ask for more money we ask for Equity password being able to move and be mobilized this company more than we are you now coming into our world. In this way because if you really want it to be if you really care to be you would have done that already, this it wouldn't be this reaction and also how ready are you to make real change when change because there are probably people who have cell have reported a wanted to report things. That came from very racially motivated spaces and places they probably even have proof of somebody being racist to them in this organization. Are you willing are you ready to fire those people are you ready to discover who those people are those people maybe people who made this company a lot of money. Who done a lot of things for this company who are great assets to this company are you ready to let those individuals go for the pretense of them being racially motivated in some way some way shape or form that's, goes against all the bylaws that every company says that they go by that there's no racism sexism and ableism and various things that everybody just has to say I'll put it on the wall and eeo c and so on and so forth how much are you really ready to actually practice that, how much are you really ready to decline decline some type of offer some type of interest is in a position from people who are coming in to apply for positions, I know that y'all look at y'all have access into people loudly and proudly are being bigoted on the internet these days if you discover these things in the assessment of these people. Are you going to are you going to tow the line, are you going to be like where we're not a political organization we don't lean anyway we're not going to reject someone because the Republicans were not going to check someone because they voted for Trump and they're letting it be known and it's like that is what we're talking about. Like that it like that is the uncomfortable aspects of what why we don't bring it up why we don't put pressure on organizations because we know you're going to let you let us down and not do what needs to happen. Mike if we Lilly just spell it out as people who believe in this particular Doctrine this particular political ideology and this particular social thing that keeps occurring in life like the people who are blue lies matters who are just being you know divisive for their own sake just because they don't want to admit that there's an issue and there's needs to be some police reform and even abolition for to some say. If we're not having that type of radical conversation we're not ready to really make true real solutions we keep putting Band-Aids Band-Aids. On things that don't even matter yeah which is so funny that Band-Aid finally got a brown then you know I'm saying we putting Band-Aids on stuff there we go there we got wounds we got literal open wounds that are just you know stuff like Lily consistent consistently being reopened and various ways cuz that's what happens every time these things occur and they occur. Way more than what people really know. And if you only if you're if you're a white individual working in a corporate space living your life you know you're John Salley with two kids living in you know living in a nice, you know to floor walk-up you got a boat you're doing good you're doing fine for yourself so to you you may be only you maybe be a real nice person you got a real nice family out real you know politically correct you've watched and donate it you've done some community service, and you probably just count the things that have made national news. But these things happen in communities that never get that type of shot George Floyd was not the first person to get that type of treatment done and for a lot of people to know about it it's just the way the media works. It's all based off of what they want you to see so for me it was me saying all of that. Right after saying all of that I said a lot and I gave you that was literally the best synopsis I could give but I said a lot and after that I was getting you know. Messages in teens chats and emails, from everybody from the CEO 02 the vice president of legal to the HR managers, and it was all positive feedback but also very awkward feedback as well like I am so I am so moved by what you said it was just kind of like what I'm supposed to say thank you for that you know it was like I don't know how to interact with it like this isn't this doesn't feel like something I can sing to get complimented for. Like I said all I said was just fact like asking that question like if you're so moved what do you moved to do like what are you moved towards yeah and that's what I said to a few people like yeah keep doing work or Keep Ya keep the good fight and I was trying to respond with things that was not giving some type of salutation of thank you because, I don't know what you're thinking me for what did I just give you what did I like what did I what did you receive from me right and reality you know because if. Because a lot of things I said felt like common sense to me so I'm not gonna lean in for it to be just an interpretation of how you perceived because then that feels like I don't know like I just said a lot and it just can be taken as just a moving speech. You know they kind of just captured in a moment and really doesn't do anything else because that's what happens, that's what you find a good Facebook post to post that feels like a kind of encapsulates the moment and that's what you feel you feel like you've got it done is like I sat through a black man basically you know taking it, taking it to the man and I feel like I've done so much today I'm gonna go get me some Cold Stone, and turn on Seinfeld you know I'm seeing for the rest of the day I feel like activists today you know like and so that's what it felt that's what it felt like and immediately after I was getting so much attention I made they had asked me to be, they elected for me to be basically like the head black man in charge of the black inclusions team which one of the most popular ones that came up with and came up with several, they had one you know had a pride had a pride Center one affinity group they had a woman's affinity group they had a Asian and Pacific Islander affinity group head Aladdin affinity group they even had a green, affinity group. And I just you know like all about kind of you know recycling in renewable energy and things like that and they started to create these things and started to basically say like everyone needs to have, you know whatever your organ is wherever these organizations to do and I was the biggest proponent of you know making sure that this. Was the biggest thing that was being done was internal change there was a lot of things happening in these meetings that was being trying trying to make us do things outside, trying to make as create events that are going to benefit out external things like oh Community this or banquet this or gala this or fundraiser this and I'm just like okay but we need to create, things that are going to help people and this organization that needs to be channels of being able to report when things occur so that people feel safe that they're not going to lose their jobs. You know because a lot of people aren't saying things because right alongside me getting a lot of my white co-workers coming in giving me some type of awkward praise for what I said in it on that call I also got a lot of my own black co-workers who own that car. Just telling me thank you, you know like a Nazi I accepted that cuz I knew where it came from because it was like an 88 and they explained what the thank you was they didn't just say thank you I was so moved, it was like thank you cuz that's something I've been wanting to say but didn't know how to say didn't have the nerve to say was afraid to say I got a family. But that's exactly you say so many things which was exactly some things I've thought and I've been with the organization for years. And I could never die was why I don't think I could ever have said any of these things but as exactly what I feel and I appreciate you saying that. I'm saying and I think it was me being as young as I was me not having the tenure that I did meet all these different things and I consistently in every meeting that I because I was the maybe the president of these organization of this organization. And every president every a meeting that I'm conducting I'm basically doing a mini version of that same thing just continuously reading the whole organization. Just letting them know what they're doing wrong and every single stop I never didn't take the opportunity to let it be known what they're doing wrong what is happening what should happen I believe it was I forgot what his I think was Jamal something, had occurred almost seven to eight months after the fact in Minneapolis. It was a white female cop who actually shot and killed a young black man and I remember they had they just took forever to say. And I remember saying like by this time we've already established a lot of decorum. You know we have a holy board where I started plan things we started to have some you know can we monthly meetings we're talking more we have an executive sponsor now. Where they're in the meetings and they're conversing with us about certain you know initiatives and efforts why are you taking so long to say something about this oh y'all sent the email only to the Minneapolis office about this scenario. You know as if the world doesn't know about this you tell and also you told that in the inner part of that email was like about not coming to work about not working in the office because by this time we started to get to a hybrid system so. I'll just sent a lengthy email of like what was all of this for if you're not going to come and cooperate in like that allow for me and the team of people. Who are part of this group to advise or to say something or to have say in how this is going to occur then what is the point of all of this what's the point of all of this but mind you my genuine real feelings about it because I was mind you I'm Lily in the phase of my own exit strategy I know I'm not I know my days are numbered, and everything I was doing wasn't coming from a space of what I really felt. Drug if I feel like I got on it on the mic and told him how I really feel it would have not went well I might have lost my job because I don't have I didn't have that much to me the writing was on the wall if you've been around since 09 it's now it's been great it's 2020, is to 20/20 I don't think you care about black people and I would have said it flat like that. But that would have you know created a you know a frenzy obviously but I so everything that I spoke for my spoke from a space that was about the people spoke from a perspective that was just general I never had to ever give my opinion because the facts were visceral enough to make my point they were brutal and true and and so true that I didn't have to make up anything I didn't have to come up with my opinion everything was just based off something that you can Google you know so. Overall just be able to observe about this, particularly you know corporate community so yeah I let them know that then they finally said something and then they I've had a meeting with a few other, I was having meetings with c-suite level people and it was you know older and middle-aged white men I'm telling about themselves which I thought was intriguing very, very oddly self-deprecating as well too for them to kind of like engage with me in that way because they had those types of questions they had those types of things and I know I've told so many people about this they say why did you do this why did you, you know allow yourself to go through this much effort they didn't pay you to do this this isn't right you should have done all this and I was like to be quite honest I think it was my last hoorah and I feel like I got a lot from it too, you know like from a psychological from a ego from a very ego and very. I'm not kind of just from a fight like this is my last who ride this is the last true like, corporate job like corporate job where this is does not align with my career does not align when I want to do I like that I'm going out this way. I like that it's on record in in various spaces and places at this is how I believe that people know this is how I feel about them in terms of a corporate entity. So I kind of liked it I'm doing this and it's just it was slightly therapeutic because I'm literally sitting here talking to middle-aged white man about how terrible white men are in the world. Who gets the chance to do that yeah right who will get the chance to do that so I'm like I'm gonna take I'm gonna see it this way and also thought. I have the opportunity to influence groups of people who can make change for other people who look like me are in this industry why not do that I'm already on the way out, I'm already getting close and close to my own self Liberation they probably actually have some true interest, in this industry they probably want to go far they probably have enjoyed it see it as something that's viable for their future their families and their future families so on and so forth but they also deserve for that to be a comfortable space to grow in and to strive to stay in, so yeah I'm gonna try to I'm going to try my best to like make this into something that I'm establishing all the best things I can forward so I feel like I went out on top. So by the time that I you know initiated yeah told and I told them that I was you know leaving. Only again I told him on Friday send an email Friday tell him I'm leaving the following Wednesday, no two weeks they were so perplexed ice they were so perplexed I definitely did it out from a space of protest but also from a space of like that was just the extracurricular of my job my actual team did not respect who I was. Did not respect my work ethic did not respect what I was giving today. Teen you know I was up I was one of three people who started that specific specialized team where nobody knew how to do the job. I didn't even know how to do the job when I first started doing it. Because it was a very specialized mode of transportation that a lot of people didn't know how to do we didn't have enough resources for to be able to just create a whole new strategic plan around it so we need to start with its three people and see if we can have a proof of concept. And we proved it and then by the time that we get to this point it's already eleven people on the team and I was a part of the original Three. And so by the time I left in April 20 20 April 28 2021. I became the most tenure person on our team not because of any other thing other than time my manager quit and left to Leeds. That were given the positions over me who I train they got promotions before I did wow and this is Manju it wasn't like I never expressed interest in and getting more work, it wasn't like I never that wasn't a conversation that could have been had or at least some type of, this is why you can't be in this particular position this is what we need to see from you all those things were available to be said to me and none of those things were said and even the person who were brought who's brought in so we have, four people four people from two leads a manager and a supervisor all leave. Right before me and the team that is now they're the director who is always originally there was there and there was a new hiring manager and I basically let him know all of what was going on because he was basically now they're looking at me to be the person who they're about to promote to be in to give some type of more, energy because this guy needs some help he doesn't know what he's doing and so they know they need to give put get they know they need to give him some help he has no leads. He's the only lonely manager and his senior manager whose he was hired by is leaving too. So the only person who knows the most of how this team has worked for the past two years is me. Because I was there since the beginning man I've seen I've Lily Lily on-boarded almost half the accounts that we were operating at that time. But for some reason I wasn't leave material I wasn't even managerial material you see I'm saying so it's this interesting thing in mind you I was only at the company for three years. And I was put in a position to where I should be on the fast track to middle management because I'm in the specialized group because I'm literally saving this company right, hundreds of thousands even millions of dollars because there was nobody watching the money nobody to go and actually fighting email and try to get the money back from customers and from various different because the third-party entity so you everybody's basically just fighting over who's at fault and who should have money and, what who should be paying for what and if you have nobody to manage that then if you're going to basically be paying a lot more for a lot of things you shouldn't really pay for. So that was really the biggest reason why this right a lot more Band-Aids lot more a lot more Band-Aids and we were definitely big starting to become a cast. That could actually heal what this what all this money that was happening all this money that was being lost in that was happening so I very much knew the work ethic and the things that I was doing. Anything and in the value that I brought to the team because it wasn't like like I said earlier. Because I was so articulate and I am the type of person that I am I'm not only just providing which I think people need to give more shine and like. I'm not only providing performance in the job but I'm actually making the work. Better for everybody else on the team the center of morale that's a big thing to say I'm making everybody feel like they can do their job a little bit easier every day. And I don't have to do that that's an extra X Factor that is truly. Damn near Priceless so yeah pay me more for today you know I'm saying because that means I have an extra quality that influences other people you see I'm saying I'm bringing that to the team and that's what's going to keep people able to come into work every day. I'm suggesting part looks I'm suggesting quizzes on a slow day I'm suggesting questionnaires and and games to play and blase bladder just keep our free time going in our minds fed with something because the day is so damn mundane. I'm having I'm starting conversation than just getting us talking talking about music saying let's change the playlist listed the same thing every damn day. Just those are the small things I did to keep myself sane and it actually aided and abetted work environment even in the slightest way that's definitely what the person who started the whole energy of I'm not eating my eat I'm not eating lunch at my desk, if I am if it's a break for an hour I'm not gonna be here. No one did that yeah I did it from the start how you know what people started to do eventually leave their desk for an hour. And have their break to do whatever people went home to eat lunch people people went and went and worked out they use their time the way that they wanted to use their time which they did not do before. Because I felt like oh no this is what everybody else in the organization has been learned to do yeah and what's so interesting is that it's. They needed a person they needed the permission like that's just so. Fascinating I mean there's so much to unpack when it comes to corporate culture like we would need a we probably will do a whole episode on that. But just the fact that they couldn't kind of think of that on their own they needed someone like you who is like, okay fuck this noise I'm gonna there's no rules to say I have to sit at my desk or there's no rules that I have to do this so I'm going to take my time and I'm going to use it the way that I want you because it's my time and to them thinking like this is such a. Big big like oh look Rodney did it well I think I can do it too like that floors me as well we are all very capable smart humans and yet when you put us in this you know. Collective lending environment and I'm not saying that all corporate offices are like that but you know for this story specifically. The fact that they really didn't feel not only. Welcomes to utilize their own time and their own way they didn't feel safe to even vocalize. The changes that they wanted to make to continue to enjoy, working there and then on the flip side the fact that your higher-ups are so and I'm going to say our because I'm assuming they probably still are so blind to it like they didn't even go there. That every again there's just so much to process here and I, love that not only did you see the opportunity and take it in so many ways I love that you know going back to you know you stepping forward and that town hall and going look if nobody else is going to say it I'm going to say it and again being that example because I knew you know you were doing this not to benefit. But you know the six white men that are above you in the c-suite you're doing it to benefit the people that you are working with and who are surrounded by you right too. Be like you wanted to just your what sounds like your main objective was to leave that place better than you found it and hopefully Inspire others. To continue that work so the that boundary of. You know you knew going in that you already had an exit strategy so you are just going to make it as good as you could and then like, peace out nicely but also with a you know with a little fuck you is also that boundary of you then you then knew how much you wanted to give them, emotionally you know energetically all of those things so again that also is such a beautiful example for those who are either still there or had the privilege of being in that same space with you for them to see that they could do, the same or pick up where you left off and engage their energy and their boundaries to continue that. That Snowball Effect yeah and I don't know where a lot of of the people who I worked with who are part of the organization and last year are still there. Because I know that turnover definitely from that time of 2022 then was. Increasing and I think not only just because of the organization itself but I think everybody around the world around the nation, we're assessing what they should be doing for themselves and so which you know. You know sorry to sound like a fortune teller but I kind of called it and then that first thing I say it is like people going to people now going to view things differently so they people going to want to leave if they feel like they aren't comfortable because they now see they see things differently so to Me overall it was a liberating experience is definitely one of the top you know it definitely replaced, me making the choice to move to Chicago meat making a choice to go to the university I went to definitely kind of you know is the top tier, choice that I have a made for myself in my life and I think I'm you know regardless of the up-down in the learning process in the true wrist taking it was. I'll never you know I think it was the one thing I need to do for myself because now I know myself better I know what I'm capable of I know what my genuine level of work ethic is and also What's blocking me to even push harder. I don't think I would have gotten that if I didn't quiet mumbling my life to quiet my mind to get out of the the quote-unquote rat race to a certain degree and be able to know this I have to provide for myself 100% in what does that look like. And what is it and now you see what type of work what type of work are you are how hard you will push yourself. What is it mean to now make all of your money on your own what does it mean to now what do you not know what do you believe you thought you knew that you were good at that you really need more work on what do you need to give more time to because fact of the matter is when you give him 10 hours, of your day to a job and then two hours to transition to commute from that job so 12 hours of your day is spent an obligation to something else, those 12 hours that are gone that you don't have for yourself to build onto yourself to be the slow building block of self improvement in personal development because when you get home you gotta be an adult and don't let you have fucking kids, don't let you have other responsibilities your Miu maybe you maybe only get two hours to yourself. And those two hours might not even be a complete duration of that time they might just be spread out, The Watcher take from that from that break that you had early in the day and when you get home maybe that hour before you go to bed that might be the only time that you maybe have had to yourself that you can choose to fill this time up with whatever you want to fill it up with, how much time is there two hours in your day out of a 24 hour day. You got to spend eight of it sleeping you got to spend you know the rest of your time doing other things for other people or doing other things that are just a part of your responsibilities like cleaning your house like you know organizing yourself for whatever it is that you need to do it's a lie. And I was trying to do that plus having a podcast plus trying to have a half business in some way shape or form for almost the past. Really for the past 5 years. You know so I'm just in until I finally like let go and Quinn like fire my job it was that was kind of what it was a liberating experience for me. And I think you know I made an episode about that in my last day in Corporate America. Was the title of that episode I did it on live I've recorded you can still listen to it to this day and I. Gave a good breakdown of everything that I felt like I had to do and why were my mindset wasn't why I did it and how I'm feeling, you know I never said I was I had issues sleeping throughout 2020 couldn't even sleep at night I'm so Restless, and that day I had probably the best sleep I've had in 2021, that's all I did I didn't I did a lot of things try to get do a lot of life life hacks and body hacks to try to make me sleep better from 2020 and to that moment and that was one thing I did that just gave me the complete. Answer to what it was like dang I didn't think I was this. Trouble by my body's energy but you know I've had conversations about it so many times that you know a future guest and I'm going to publish episode on she said it the best, she said why would your body why would your body allow for you to do something that you naturally that you already know that you don't want to do. So why would your body give you rest for something that you don't even want to be it. You don't even want to do and so right so often so often you can see that in so many things that we do you know when it comes to if you if you were I think I just seen it was a quote from Les Brown that I have retweeted on a reposted on tick-tock. Where he said, if you use that live your life like you know like it's your last like you have nothing else to you know like you know that you're the end of days are going to happen soon because if somebody told you had 90 days left to live you will make so many major changes in your life. And what eight ninety percent of people say they're going to do is leave their job and so why is that mmm why would you leave your job. You've been choosing to do it for the past however many years but now that you know that you got to you know that you guys have this much to live so that means your job really wasn't the best thing for you. Your career might not have been the one that you should have Benny and I think that we have too many options there's too many and I think there's a whole industry that I think can be created to assist in people to Pivot. Because I think that's the space that we should be moving into people should be more aligned and should be doing the things that they want to do and not ya feel, almost like obligated to just take whatever they can which is what so many organizations are having trouble with now is that. The job there's people always the saying there's too many jobs out here and people are not you don't want to work anymore because of the pandemic and people they should have never sent the stimulus has out they should have never did the PPP loans it should have never made people work from home and brought down industry they should have never did these things the people who are saying this are capitalists. Because they they are living their dream and they employ people yeah and the people who want to now live their dream to are getting in the way of their bottom line. And to me it's like people should be doing things that they want to do I'm a millennial obviously so I'm big on that but do what you want to do. Me too I got you I like I like do what you want to do like why should you spend however many years just hoping that it's going to work out and I get it some things may be that may be a part of your plan but plan it that way yeah say to yourself like hey I'm going to. Work this particular job for this long I'm going to strive to get these particular goals met while I'm here so I'm going to I want to make more money every year I want to get promotions and I'm going to leave in five years. Everything that I want to do with my free time is going to be me to set up this thing that's going to set me up for life I'm going to save aggressively I'm going to invest Within Myself invest in learning about these things I need to learn so that I can then, create this business or do whatever it is that you want to do maybe you want to change your whole career and get into a different professional field whatever that is and you know that you want to do it in a certain amount of time that's what you do and you stick today you know if that's what you feel like your options are because everybody doesn't have that as an option to be able to just come out of college and go straight to their career come out of college and or not at a college evening a choice they know they got to just start working you know and they don't don't have any skills don't have a real resume yet so they just take whatever they can find in that time, they take whatever makes sense you know that's hence why so many people go to the Army go and take these very very you know. Heavily strong commitments and they can Aid you that you can use that as a resource that can be a good part of your story and just be an element of your story, before a lot of people shouldn't that shouldn't be the case for everybody it should be a situation where there should be a fast track in the things I think that's why so many yeah women and people of color are going to take yeah I so for those who are listening and you're just waiting for your sign to like Do Your Own Thing yeah this episode is Here sign because it's so true that you know all the decisions that all of us make it any time or the best decisions that we can make with the information that we have at that time right and when you get new information, you can therefore make new decisions which therefore usually takes a new plan and there's nothing flaky about that there I mean us Millennials we have this you know label with us that were flaky that we're snowflakes that we bounced around know what we're doing is we're just Gathering to your point like you know way in the beginning of this conversation we're gathered information we are learning new things and therefore that gives us new input which gives us a new plan and, it's so funny that you mentioned you know people like why don't people want to work anymore they ship to the stimulus, I just returned from a family vacation in Denver and that was top a line conversation for my. Older family members who are corporate either incorporate or own their own major corporations, and every time I'm like well it's just because it's not what they're lying to a team or it does it matter honestly what yes benefits matter I'm not saying that you know you can't have a cohesive. Supportive work environment however, if a person has something that is top of line and of a priority for them and you can't nurture that or support it or elevate it they're not going to work for you and that's okay they're going to either create their own thing or find a company that does and. I think having now these new options and more examples of people like you and others who have, you know made a plan yes you went into the corporate environment knowing that you had a plan that it was only you know you're like I don't know if I wasn't your actual example but to your point of like five year plan you're going to save this amount but you're gonna spend your you know your, you're outside time establishing this so that when your 5-year hits you have the runway to you know maneuver into this new path. It doesn't matter what your past looks like as long as it's yours and it is yours if you have full say on how you design, your journey there might be things that come to you that you don't have you know things outside outside experiences are outside situations that you don't necessarily have quote-unquote control over, what you do have is the control over the information that that situation provides to you and how and allow that to if it needs to shift. Your perspective your direction you are resources all of those things. So if you're listening to this right now you're like I've been how happy and better buddies telling me to just like quit today and you know worry about it tomorrow but that's not your speed then do but make a plan make a one-year plan make a six month plan Make A Five-Year Plan. That gives you you know the confidence in the foundation to maneuver but you always have, full say even inside of ass corporate space where you know you want to vocalize some indiscretions I guess you could say our vocalize any microaggressions that is your space as much as theirs and you have, full permission whether your higher-ups have given you that or not to address them and then you can react how you've, Dean fats to keep you safe to keep you supported and you know and to keep your boundaries in place yes yes, yeah I feel like you know for me it was a very liberating experience and it still is a liberating experience that I'm learning and help me just kind of be able to read, assess myself in a lot of ways in terms of what I was doing for myself and I was spending so much time dedicated to something else that I didn't, make time enough for the things I needed to make time for and even now and I think I get this weird sense of remorse. All the time of like how much time I spent doing so many things that did not Aid and where I wanted to be in life. You know and I've you know I obviously I believe if you feel that way definitely on you know encourage you to have Grace on yourself because you just didn't know you were doing what you felt like you needed to do, for yourself at the time so definitely if right now in this conversation it feels like dang I've you're right I should be doing more for myself I should be choosing myself more often, and that has nothing to do with the entities that I'm you know aligning myself with what I help would help me be able to. Let go and truly change my mindset was that I only want to work with. People only want to work with organizations I never want to feel like somebody has dominion over me in any way shape or form I want to be the true master of my own universe and Destiny. To where I can live the life I want to live based off of my own Merit based off of what it is that I do well based off what it is I can prove. Because that's what it that's what we can show. That's what it is if you're considering who I am and what I am how I identify all these different things and not the work itself then we have a problem. We have a problem you know and so we just shouldn't be aligned we shouldn't work together do you like what I do know cool somebody will somebody does. And we got to just keep moving them thing a lot in that way but allowing me to feel like I have to humble myself or deal with so many different things to just be able to survive, does not seem fair does not seem well does not seem right does not seem like something I would ever suggest for anybody to do. And as well we live in is you know so harsh and so you know it goes to you have your own natural tribulations in various ways especially when you are identifying ways that are not that were designed for you to have a harder time why make it hard on yourself agreeing to be a part of organizations and entities that really are not for your best interest and I tell people all the time. Because since I left I'm now the you know go to I'm thinking about quitting my job can you help me type of person okay you to give me some guidance on how to go about it and I've told them I'm like. Keep in mind do you want somebody else to be the ones who tell you how fast you should climb, how fast you should fly how fast you should go if you're already showing competency to be a leader within a particular position then they should be encouraging you to be in that position that you want to be in. Or be at least forthcoming as to why you can't be in that position right now we don't have the budget we do high-end like that's the crazy part about it is I think so much of you know corporate structure, it's definitely this very kind of very like white passive, aggressive type of like in very male centered way of going about things so it has a very slanted sense of Confrontation so a lot of white men don't realize they show up in this way where it's like I rather just call the police on you and instead of telling you that I think you guys are loud. In the neighborhood you know instead of coming and confronting myself like hey. You guys I got it I got a newborn baby I get you guys to Summertime you know it's Chicago shots you know summertime Shot Ya get it but my baby can't sleep in his sleep for today, like is there a way for us to kind of meet in the middle yeah with this you know I'm saying like is there a way for us to figure this out because I don't want to cause any issues y'all with cool we're cool I want you to know I'm cool now y'all can come and talk to me so that I may be complain like, you know tell the tale the neighborhood of tell the block that you know that you're doing this shoot I might I would have came with the baby over to Major the baby stayed up cam got me a sausage and a beard you know probably went for a walk, came back when everything calm down and play them down but, that's not what happens that's not what happened yeah you know there's a instant that comes in and now you have this issue now you have this animosity now you have this aggression. We now can't be real true neighbors anymore because you are adversarial to me you see that I'm someone who's disturbing your peace when you just Disturbed. Don't let us be in don't let us be black people on other side street this really don't really feel good now you know we really don't really you don't know what was happening over here you don't know what's going. You know do you know the real laws around having marijuana in your spaces and places what if he were smoking now you've exposed people. You know because so many different laws and things when it comes to that you cannot do this in certain practices you got to have it in writing if your landlord really would let you do this even outside not even not even just just because you're on their own premises, when in my life will be a conversation that you ever really have your landlord they probably give smoked a joint with you. But now the cops can now make that into a conversation because they're there and they smell smell nothing but the best outside you know while this Gathering is happening because you call right the police and that's how all of corporate structure is is this passive-aggressive I'm not I'm gonna tiptoe and not acknowledge the person that you are and that I feel a way about you being the person that you are I don't understand you I don't I don't want your shoes, but also I feel like I deserve to be in these particular spaces in place. I feel like I deserve to put my friend on before I put you on cuz I know them I feel like I work with them better than you. And in just to understand it that is a bias that exists my let's keep it real and let's be forthcoming about it all it's like hey it's not in the budget to give anybody a promotion right now. But this is what you can do. Can we find you to be in another space can I move you to it would you be comfortable moving to another department because they have openings they have budgets they can be in that you can maybe not do what you've been doing but dude something similar and be paid more and have the title. But people don't do that in so many organizations they literally just are like oh you've been at an entry level position for the past four years oh you didn't know. We didn't realize yeah didn't express interest. You didn't do all these things and this was like okay sure you're like sure like as if that's an easy thing to do it's already hard enough to get a job. It's for so it's even harder to try to move up through a job so that's why I say you got to feel good you gotta stand your ground about what it is that. How fast you want to get to where you want to be because you are in control with that and if it seems like somebody is impeding on that then there may be a something to assessing get get out of. So good I mean the the what is good kind of swirling in my head is like a on both sides of the aisle right as an as an employee. Vocalize and you know be confident and be comfortable and then on the you know on the c-suite side. Listen educate yourself and communicate like don't neither there so many assumptions on in so many areas of life and it's like. Could be alleviated so much more if we. Educated ourselves communicated between each other and listen to each other instead of just naturally assumed and take action I'm so happy that you shared. All of this honestly because this is such the tip of the iceberg I know and. I'm sure we are going to get a ton of questions either people are going to seek you out and teach questions or I'm sure we're gonna get a ton of questions on you know our show notes our website and things but, thank you for bringing but thank you for that like thank you. Sharing that and as well as sharing your energy and your emotional, labor with me and with us, because I know so many people feel seen and heard right now and for those of us who are continuing to educate ourselves to Google about points for us right to be too edgy to again educate ourselves so then we can have communication with others and then as a collective really start to see how. Similar we are as well as how we can support each other in the ways that we are not similar cuz I like the word different like yeah we're everybody's different but to find those cohesive Collective connections. By just having a conversation instead of again that assumption and then just taking an instant action without any sort of like in-between phase. I you know I really hope that this conversation continues to inspire that not only for the people that you inspired from, the actions that you took both verbally and emotionally in your corporate environment but continue to, take through your podcast through your storytelling and also to you know have more platforms more spaces for us to again, listen to each other communicate with each other and then as a collective. Start to implement the things that we want to implement as a like I said as a collective yeah yeah I appreciate did I mean I think you know the concept of your podcast I think it's dope because this you know. It's a space that you would think that somebody would already be covering to a certain degree but I think it's. Is good to kind of get people to expand about all the other things that they are too you know and all the things that they've seen other than what people know them to be no them for know them to be and I because I think a lot of people, only people who I've you know know personally and the little that I have a divulged in my you know recordings about that really understand kind of what that time was like for me and also even why you still people who question or you know. I still have reservations about me going about it the way that I did. In saying like you shouldn't have done all of that you didn't have to do all that but it's kind of like you know your exit strategy in your mission to you know what your own, since of Life self you know Liberation looks like from a from a obligate obligatory you know call you know whatever you know making a living looks like for you that's all you you got to be happy with that you had to be content with that and I feel really good about yeah I felt really good about every all the energy that I was giving an order all the you know the facts and fun facts and things like that but it's also I know that that's me I'm not telling everybody else to do that. And I'm not telling everybody else to go out and exact same way yeah I want you to go out in the way that you want to go out in you know I'm I don't believe that black and brown and people of color I should be, the educators of these things because you do have Google you do have books you do have people who are from these communities who have taken the time out to educate the world and give them the language to understand the plight sand or just a little bit, of the perspective of so many people who are walking around is Earth so that's on you to do to work for me. I might have the time but I'm a person who loves to communicate a person loves to talk and if I see that you genuinely want to know Eugene Lee kind of care then I might give you that space and time, but I also don't do that for everybody I'll pick and choose you know so, even if it seems like yeah you're the guy I can get that from I might not give it to you you know just because I don't know where it is I don't really know you that well or yeah really haven't shown me to be a person who's going to use information. In a wise way so yeah so why even waste my time you know I'm saying. Yeah so just give you peace and give you some tips tricks that you twist and. Twist and make into something else to make your argument that's strange so yeah yeah yeah banana I appreciate you letting me come on in and I say all these things to. Love it and I'm just going to add on to for those I was gonna say nod people color I'm just going to call it, those white people who think that they can just overwhelm any person of color that they know in their life and this is something that actually they do as a living pay them. This just because they're your friends doesn't mean that they can be your instant accessible free resource especially this is something that they do as part of their, business further job pay them because we would pay anybody else for any that for any other service so if I know which way or form, is any service by any means by anyone because they are close to you, deemed free in any which way or form but yeah thank you for that thank you for the compliment of the definitely. Is an inspiration for the space of you know there is so much that we can learn from each other when we get out of our quote-unquote boxes and comfort zones and. So yeah thank you so quickly Now quickly take your time if you would like I don't want to rush you but I do want people to know where they can find you your podcast like how can people how can people find you and connect with you yes you can find me you can find at any of my socials at Kings underscore Memoirs and when you come to my page especially on IG it's basically the Hub of all the things that I do, I post about if there's any Partnerships if there are any personal piece of content that I make a lot of my main page is pivoted to be more about. Kind of just self-help and mail and I'm a man evolving and hoping that I Inspire other people to evolve as well become better men but also just overall wellness and overall from. Every standpoint it's kind of what my page is trying to become you know trying to encourage people to be better to themselves show more grace to themselves and. You know and do the work that is required for you to to be your best self but you can also follow the podcast page at simply King pot on IG as well simply King podcast everywhere on all streaming platforms there's. Several thousands of hours of several thousands of hours of content is 100 over 198 episodes. Um over 198 episodes over the span of the past six years with majority majority film guests. Giving their perspectives and have so many different perspectives have people from you know International guests all different types of things and it's in a nutshell a cultural criticism podcast Where I Come, I talked about, so much so many things centered in somebody's identity centered in somebody's experience centered in just how the world is and just talking about an expanding on those things from Millennial lens, this week it whenever you whenever you're listening this week's episode will be probably different than the one you can see from last week or the one that you'll hear next week so it's definitely a great ride and under the diverse one, so I think you will enjoy whoever wherever you are whenever you are I appreciate it. Fantastic well thank you so much Rodney for your time I love where this conversation went at that's not where I was expecting it to go which is why I love doing this and create the space to just let it go where. It wants to eat because they're so so many gems inside of your share inside of your story so thank you for taking the time, and for the rest of you that are listening, everything that Rodney mentioned will definitely be in the show notes so check those out definitely check out his podcast and reach out to him but thank you again Rodney so much for spending time with me and thanks everybody for listening and we'll see you next time. All right folks once again thank you so much for listening to this epic episode all of the resources and links connected to it will be in our show notes located on our website more than, stop bus route.com if you like this episode which I would be shocked if you did not go ahead and hit that like subscribe review and share, also remember that this episode and all others have been made possible by Financial contributions and support from listeners like you so if you would like to hear more stories of how epic humans are more than just pop on over to our GoFundMe and make a contribution. Also don't forget to follow us on Instagram at more than just podcasts. Music.