More Than Just a Copywriter — with Stephanie White

This week, I am joined by Stephanie White, copywriter and COO of By the Way Creative. Together, we have a thoughtful and powerful conversation about boundary setting and seeing boundaries as more than limits.

We also discuss:

• Doing business your way, not the way others say you should, from the beginning
• The critical need to set great boundaries in business and in your personal life
• The caretaker expectations that get placed on women that make them unintentional martyrs
• Putting hours of white space in the calendar for creativity and creative thinking
• The way boundaries change with you over time

Links & resources:

• Follow Stephanie on Instagram: @bythewaycreative
• Visit Stephanie’s Website: https://bythewaycreative.com/
• Follow Mel on Instagram @mel_mcsherry
• Follow the podcast on Instagram @morethanjustpodcast

🙌 This podcast is supported by listeners like you! If you enjoyed this episode, we'd appreciate it if you could make a donation of any amount at this link. You rock!

Transcript

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Music. I'm your host Mel mcsherry on this podcast we share how we are more than just descriptors and titles that identify us and our lives our. And our. In the safe common room space you'll hear stories of success and Lessons Learned From Myself and other Misfits entrepreneurs and change makers. My intention is to inform connect and expand our knowledge so we can be mentally emotionally and financially. As we create the change we desire my promise is that from each episode you'll take away not only inspiration and a connection to someone you never knew before, but also the encouragement the action steps and the support so you can create what you want. I cannot wait to see what we will learn today so let's get started. Hello everyone welcome to yet another amazing episode of more than just. Mel mcsherry here with one of my absolute favorite people in the world and you will learn why and just a little bit but first and foremost Stephanie white thank you so much for being here today. Thank you for having me in your world of super excited to be here and be part of this with you. So Stephanie and I have known each other and I looked back because I wanted to make sure it was accurate in this we've known each other since November of 2018. Which is wow what different world I know seriously I mean in more and more ways than one, and how we met was we were a part of a Facebook group that was you know encouraged to help women entrepreneurs phosphate is Boba they observe and part of that was they encouraged us to look for accountability partners and I have always had very interesting relationships with accountability partners, but I thought all right give it a go they ask you to almost make like a dating profile like who you're looking for what you do. So Stephanie guy connected through that Stephanie is in the UK and we have been business Besties. Ever since and it's been so cool because not only do we hold space for each other business-wise, we have met twice a month every month for the last can't do math spits in 2018. And it's been such a phenomenal I wouldn't be here without her and her support and her safe holding and I'm just so excited that you're here so thanks for being here again, thank you and the feeling is so mutual it was crazy to think about such a long time ago and how much has changed for us but yeah you're so right like personally it's been an incredible journey as well as professionally so I'm so grateful that you asked me to be honest with you, yay so I always love to start off these episodes with my favorite question and that question is this Stephanie what is your main title or descriptor and how are you more than just that, I just love that this is the starting point and I'm really excited for this so I am known as Stephanie white no sugar. Which is the fun title, CEO of a copywriting agency called by the way creative that's my descriptor I suppose I had to have a bit of a ponder about this is to like the more than just part is so interesting and I've decided that I'm more than just a copywriter I am a boundary holder. Proceed thank you so much I shall I got you I'm in I'm invested now tell me more yes so I feel that this isn't this isn't two ways it's as a business owner and as someone who serves other business owners but also as a human that lives on the planet, a boundary holder is someone that like gives the guardrails or produces the guardrails for somebody else so in a business context in a copyright in context is two ways in which I would do that one is that I hold the hands of my clients I create a brand tone of voice that makes them feel really confident because they have guardrails within which to operate and use that voice which enables them to actually use their voice instead of staying stuck at the start gate and not, being able to talk but also from the Viewpoint of Ethics so guardrails in terms of Ethics the words we use a very important and very powerful. It's my job I mean it's everybody's job to be careful with the words that they use but specifically as a copywriter I feel it's our job to guide our clients down that path of using copy ethically, being very aware of things like appropriation dodgy marketing tactics or kind of that bro marketing as they call it those kinds of things steering them on a safe path where they do not put their toe over the line into any of those things and then personally it's something that I've had to massively work on is boundary setting over the years Mel as you well know it's my personal relationships it's something I've worked on a lot but now it's, something I feel really comfortable and confident being able to do for other people so allowing them to have boundaries or, assisting them in having boundaries by telling them things that have worked for me and things that haven't so. I am more than just a copywriter I am a boundary holder so let's talk about this journey with boundaries because that's a big one for. All of us in many ways and it continuing one. First of all how did this download come to you because before we pop died and she mentioned that she was going to talk about something new that came to her which I was very excited to hear about and now I'm curious as I naturally am. Where did this download come from like what what do you think inspired this new or different lens on what you do yeah so. I've always felt strongly about the ethics side of copywriting definitely more in the last, two years I think we're we've all become a little bit more culturally aware of the world that we live in you know we've been locked away quote-unquote for two years we've been very invested in the online space because we haven't had another space to hang out. And because of that we have been forced to reflect on the way that we see the ways that we communicate when we're not face to face with people but then on the flip side we have now started to be face-to-face with people a lot more and we haven't had to flex that muscle or remember those. Vicky interactions that we used to have because those tend to come from energies which tend to be in person. So for me recently was going back out into the world and seeing people a lot more in socializing a lot more which is not my natural state of being anyway it's really come it's really come back to me I'm like wow I have to be so careful with where I put my energy and, the boundaries that I need to kind of put around people in order to protect myself but also protect them to from relationships kind of over straying and stuff so it's very circumstantial I think that this downloaders, come and it's it fits both both situations the being locked away under then now being out in the public eye and around people again yeah cuz it's like you mentioned you know the last two years has been very. Tumultuous shifting all of the things and none of us are the same who we were. Two years ago three or I mean but especially the last two years none of us are mentally emotionally physically. The same and so for us to expect ourselves to step into a space that we use to step to all the time and just think the same stuff is going to. Stick or work or even just resonate it almost sets us up for failure right to not acknowledge the fact that. It's okay that it's different it's okay that you know your business is different your voice is different your thoughts your actions are different. And it's also okay that that means you don't fit in certain spaces anymore, for sure and I think I think what you said there as well as that none of us are the same as we were before, is perhaps something we don't always think about is we're going into what we consider to be the same old situations with the same old people but they're not the same, just as we are not the same so someone that used to makes you feel a type of way years ago. You may see them now and their lived experience of the last couple of years is really different and they've changed so we kind of relearning. Wow where the boundaries is guardrails or guide rails everyone to call them of our relationships are because even with the same people they can be a very different relationship mmm. Yeah and that's personal and professional right we found for some clients yeah we have clients and contracts that. Leave or all of a sudden just don't feel right anymore and that's. I don't want to pigeonhole this episode in 20 this is just post lockdown no no this is a continuous thing that happens. Throughout your life because in humor if you're if you're living your changing and anybody who says that they don't change. As bullshit you are always changing because everything else around you is changing and. There for you know you still even if you want to keep things the same you still have to adjust to keep shut the same because everything else is moving. So with that of we're not saying that after covid everything's gonna be easy peasy but this is going to be a continuous this was like a big. You know Universal face palm to the forehead there's going to be other little or episodes where we need to remember. Or remember or reconnect to who we are what we want and who we want to work, with and sometimes our clients come to that conclusion before we do in that fucking sucks I don't have had climbs ghost me call equines leave me you know people that you thought you'd work with forever all of a sudden just don't. But also impersonal, relationships so with the boundaries how long have you been a business owner now five it is just over five years let's talk about a so I call her CD so let's talk about Stevie four years ago versus Stevie now, what would be if you could talk to her now and for those who are like in their newer stages of Entrepreneurship. What would you tell her that right now at this stage in your business you think you are your needs are below the client's needs. Specifically as a service provider I think this is even worse but definitely as a start out coach anyone that is, serving to a client base at the beginning you put yourself beneath the client then needs are way more important than yours and that leads you to bend over backwards create unhealthy boundaries with clients set a tonality that is not. How you want to wake up everyday and build your business and it's okay for you at the very beginning to go actually, this is how I want this to go down no I don't want to do Discovery calls because they don't make me feel good yes I am just going to put my pricing on my website because I just want to be transparent and that's easier for me, I'm not the kind of person that wants to do every single Tick Tock Trend or whatever that that comes up is okay for you to think about. Yourself as leading the charge and if you had the choice to do anything or you have the choice for your business to go down in any type of way how would you do it. And truthfully stand in that place and start doing that from the very beginning just because everybody's telling you you have to do something a certain way and it feels vile to you does not mean that that is a good pushing through. Mmm yes. Say that again is not is not a good chair because it is it's so and that's I know that we're kind of clean entrepreneurial lens on it this is all-encompassing like even personally it's something doesn't feel right to you, in order for you to build on something or expand in something that it's not. Meant for you you it's okay the way that you want to do things and. I talked a lot about human design and a few of the episodes but that to of like you have a core Foundation of Who You Are. Who you were meant to be how you react to things and therefore there is never going to be a one-size-fits-all solution to anything it's those mises that resonate with you that then you can start utilizing and then customizing. And I know you definitely is we've both seen each other whether that'll last you know four or five years of trying stuff and being super excited about something. That we thought was going to be massive and then it's not and then that like. Grieving period what do you think has been and I would love to hear both personal and professional especially in the last couple of years with these huge developments for you or these huge downloads. What have been kind of your biggest aha's for yourself oh I love this question, weirdly I actually got asked this on a recent Retreat and it wasn't until it got around the whole circle and landed on me that I was like oh my goodness I have to actually answer this question what am I going to say on the put on the personal side of things I was like oh wow I just don't know because. I feel like. Personally we haven't done a huge amount the last two years because we've mostly been at home but I had a real aha moment to coin your phrase of realizing a repeat pattern in my life that I would never have assessed normally and actually I want to go I want to go into this a little bit and I think about it okay. Feel that, as women we are often held to a standard of be nice or that's a caring thing to do or oh you're so nurturing and the phraseology around that makes you feel that to be self-sacrificial rather than self-serving is a positive way to be and this last probably six months to be honest I had this realization that that was so ingrained in me that my importance was how many people who are suffering can I hold at the same time. And the more of them I'm holding the better of a person I am like for how many people can you be the go-to friend and as long as I have like a nice catalog of people that are having like. Crisis and I'm there for them I am a worthwhile human because as a woman and I don't have children I think this is important to say I don't have children so I have. I felt on a have more capacity to take on people that are feeling like this and I kind of attract really defined myself as the go-to person the flip side of that is obviously you you get tired you get worn down and then you become a martyr. Everything is so hard and why does everybody come to me and it becomes this Dyke - thing that you did to yourself because originally you wanted this, because it made you feel a certain type of way and you were perceived in a certain type of way so that's a big personal one that I've realized is being and I noticed I noticed it more because my husband doesn't do it and neither does he feel the need to, Mike mmm ingesting the like gender Dynamic going on there that you're not expected to do these things and I kind of family he probably doesn't think of it as a way that you do right I'm sure and if we're not say that Josh has a mean person however, how they react or hold space or compartmentalize. Is it is it's completely different wiring because they have a different context whereas as women we do have this. Motherly nurturing you know caregivers and that holds. So much more weight and expectation to it yeah and I don't bark load of like societal conditioning. I think as well which gladly is very much being picked away I think like the phrase of like 2 years ago was like the woke generation which thankfully we do not use that phrase anymore but I think this generation is coming to unpick. A lot of those societal conditioning conditioning pieces and realizing that that's just all they are there just societal conditioning is not who we are who we truly are so that was a huge personal one for me which just to say out loud and speak it out loud sounds very obvious but actually what I went through like a burn it all down and start again. Process to get to that it was quite restorative and destructive all at the same time and then professionally. I think that piece that I spoke to a minute ago about realizing that just because somebody else is having great success doing something in a certain way like. Adding more services or being way more face-to-face or posting more on social media. I've definitely kind of found my groove a little bit more in the last few years of like. I don't function fantastically when I have to constantly be face-to-face whether that's doing reels doing lies always on calls it just doesn't work for me so restructuring my business so I have a fantastic team that can handle those parts better than me but also restructuring how I lived my life so I have no call week every month now which is totally new I don't have calls back to back like all these things I used to really overstep a boundary on I really realized that, no one actually tells you your business is crap and doesn't want to work with you if you say I can't do a call tomorrow can we do it next week no one freaks out only you. And if they do they're not your clients exactly I'm thankfully like 99.9% of people, I don't expect you to be available instantly to them there's a very small minority but yeah you assume everybody expects that from you when in reality, when you set that boundary you'd get barely any Kickback it was you you were fighting not anyone else. Hey friend like in the episode Pretty epic isn't it. Well guess what this episode and all others have been made possible by financial support and contributions from listeners like. So if you would like to continuously here how these epic humans are more than just. Go ahead and head over to our GoFundMe and make a contribution cool all right let's get back to the magic. And there's expectation two of you because you mentioned now that you have a team and I obviously knew you before you had a team and. Lister's whether you are you know I always asked entrepreneurs you want a lifestyle or an empire for those are looking to build an Empire. Brilliant for those who just want a lifestyle just want to be solo what would you say are some of the key boundaries that you. Set for yourself in the beginning and Ashley to folded right because you know I love the what not to do because it's always easier to know what you don't want it's better to know what you don't want then what you do want so too full. What were some of the boundaries that you saw kind of your main profitable points again mentally emotionally and financially with. And on the flip bed and what were someone's that you wish you would have set sooner for yourself okay biggest impact. Ones is having. Creative thinking time-space intentionally booked in so I would never do this at the beginning I never did this my thinking time my theorizing my whiteboard time came, if I had a spare second so if I was busy and had lots of clients honor as busy time of year personally that time didn't come and I would stagnate and that's mentally and financially, everything would stagnate because that side of me wasn't being explored so one thing, that had a huge impact for me was putting this creative time aside as in hours of white space. In my calendar because that's where I got to just sit and be and doodle and it came up with some of my best ideas like our launch package or the copy Master grind which is for training copywriters those. Things I love the most the things I love doing the most and get the most joy out of but are also the most profitable things that I do those came out of those white space moments are actually gave myself a second to breathe, and the thing I wish I had booked it had done earlier and didn't do until way way way too late was that whole piece of cutting down call time. It's that it's this just the replaces the corporate thing of a meeting that could have been an email, when you actually assess like okay how often realistically do I need to be on calls and also being very intentional about what the point of that call is and communicating it with, the client or the team member head of time and setting a really clear boundary about around it like I have half an hour in this half an hour but I really would love us to come to a conclusion on this project this on closed loop and this thing we've been discussing. And just yeah being very a wish I had done that earlier because I think it would have had a huge impact and if anything it brings me the most peace now knowing that I love the phrase closing Loops knowing that Loops are being closed. In the manner that I want them to own the day I said they're going to be and you have full C on that right and safe when we feel like we have to again, this is this probably human why but I think as women and Femme identify business owners we put extra pressure on ourselves that. We need to be available again it's going back to that nurturing thing right we need to be available that's what's going to set us apart is that you know if you need me I'll be here and I'll be by your side and handle all that and all that you can hand hold from a distance like. For those parents or Caregivers for listening we care for our children but if they're all the way up the tree. That it's like okay well we can watch them from here but that's about as much as we can do and the rest they have to figure out on their own we can still support them from far away like talk them down as they walk them through here catch them if they fall but. We can't climb up there and help them because then that's it's just not going to be good for anything so with that of like we put this extra pressure that we need to be available. You have full say and I know I say this a time you have full say on how you spend the time that you have and it's creating. Those boundaries as soon as possible whatever those boundaries are even the little ones of like office hours or I only do 20 minute phone calls or you know X Y Zed. It does just make such. A big difference because we all we love our businesses but there's has the title of a podcast there's more than that to us and I know you have. A lot of amazing outside passions including your to fur babies who I'm obsessed with. So that's important that you know we create space for that because what are some of the other things that your boundaries have been able to, give you the space and energy to to do want to spend time with yeah actually as you were saying that I had like a kind of light bulb he moment that imagined things that you would put in place with your team, with people that you work with with colleagues Etc and then imagine taking those exact same principles and putting them in place with your friends and your family so for example ones like do not come to me with a problem this is a rule we have in the by the way teams do not come to me with a just a problem and just go all Stephanie this is the problem come to me with a problem and then maybe three ways up to three ways that you think this problem could be solved same thing imagine if you did that with friends or family and you said to them look I'm so here for you and I really hold space for you when you're having an issue or you need to talk something through but what I need from you for it to be a conversation that you get what you need out of it and I feel like I have provided you with that we walk away from it is you tell me the things you need from the conversation. So come to me and say I have had a really bad day I need 20 minutes of your time to just rant cool I can do that I can be I can tell you if I'm available for that or you come to me I'm going through this really difficult thing with I don't know my partner. Kind of come around and can we just like discuss it I'd like some ideas from you as to how I could move past this or some advice caught like a I now know, you want to come to me and expect me to come back to you with ideas so if I don't have energy or space for that we can put that in for a time where I know I'm going to have that if I've had a bad day and probably not going to do that for you. So just having those same kind of rules and boundaries around things that you would with a team member, because we know if any of us have had corporate careers which I'm sure a lot of people listening will have done we know that a good manager isn't the one that micromanagers because that disempowers their team, it makes them feel that they cannot achieve something without you holding their hand in helping them so they don't become self-sufficient or grow as humans it's exactly the same when you do it your friends or family if they say they're having a bad day and you're instantly there you drop your whole life to be there and you overcome it give them way too much advice and it with flowers and chocolates and you massively overdo it you leave them feeling like they can't get through a crisis on their own. That's not how we want to treat our friends and family because that eventually will build resentment we want to build them up and Empower them with the tools to be able to go and do these things on their own it is exactly the same between a dear and a family exactly the same. I love that and I'm so glad that you connected those two dots because I think too often we try to separate the two of like our strategies for business versus ours quota code strategies for precise. Especially if you are a business owner there is snow. Separation of personal business it is personal because it's your business and its communication like that's what it comes down to is I feel like this is another minor theme that rolls through several the episodes on here is don't assume ask. Even for those who you know in a personal space don't assume that your friend is coming to you and you have to be the problem solver. But you just said ask what what do you need from me today how can I best support you and because, you don't want to waste your energy trying to solve something that they already have solved they just you like nothing is more frustrating to me with my partner which God bless him I love him to pieces but when I just want to vent and I can see his brain starting to formalize a solution and I'll stop him go I don't need you to fix this. It just needs you to listen just his whole physical demeanor changes because then he can actually engage listen because he realizes oh I don't have to fix it so still is like. And that's and I don't think people understand that is a boundary. Yeah Audrey I'm sure she that's a boundary setting for your communication it's so much more than just you know. Having a support it's really understanding that you are utilizing your energy. Effectively and efficiently as well as the person who is talking to you that they are feeling heard and seen and received and all of that. For sure and I recently had a situation come up where someone who I didn't know that well. Wanted to speak to me on like a private very private personal level and divulged a very deep kind of well mental health issue that they were having that they wished to vocalize now, old me would have leptin to like save your mode and tried to do something in that situation to help that person I am not qualified to help that person, and because of, the the practices that I've kept practicing and practicing practicing over the years I knew in that situation it would be dangerous for me to actually give this person advice because I am not qualified so I literally said in the moment that I realized. I don't have anything that I could possibly tell this person that's genuinely going to help I did specifically ask them look. I don't have anything that I can say to you that's going to help in this situation apart from that I'm really proud that you've told somebody, what would you like from the rest of this conversation do you want me to ask you questions so you can talk about it you want me to just sit with you or you want me to talk about me so that you can be distracted. But it's very dangerous if we really go down that route of thinking we are everything to all people. Because we're not and sometimes we're not qualified and that's you know you can do more harm than good itself it's a practice for you as well as for them you could end up in really dark water that you don't want to be in. Yeah and that's so it like now I'm just you know connect you that back to the way that you use your services as a copywriter like businesses. A lot of solopreneurs startups. Get into that rut of we want to be good for everybody and we want to be available to everybody and, that I don't like the word Niche so I say like that that honing in of that energy right the Honan of that focus of, who really do you connect with the best what have been some of the like potholes or I don't like to say mistakes but what what are some of the common. Things you have to shift with somebody when they come to you and they're like Stephanie we were all of this and you're like. I love this question I love this question so earlier stage entrepreneurs. I find are like the biggest consumers of information right so they're constantly reading new things they're taking a new information they're finding new people to follow their being like massively inspired which is so important don't stop doing that. However when it comes to their like moving into copy their brain is so full of everyone else's voice that when they're trying to actually communicate to me how they want to sound or how they want to come across they haven't really settled on that themselves because they have too many other voices so it's when you get like I want to sound polished but really really friendly I want to sound really ready confident and like accomplish but I want to sound sassy. Mike right okay hold up because you cannot you can't be or do all these things. I'm so that that's wonderful like early-stage entrepreneurs and then as you as suck people's scale up and they move to like I'd probably say like into the multi six figures a switch happens where. They are standing in their Authority so strongly and they know that they have like a good following and a good audience that they then forget the story side, they forget that there are still people finding them for the first time that don't know who they are and are really invested in the story they don't actually give a shit about the brand, how you've built this you know whatever company they're still connect people are still connecting with you the very first time on an emotional level even if you are brene brown, like people are finding you the first time whoever you are so not neglecting that piece as you grow and scale of being a human and having a story even if it's a well-rehearsed well-oiled story you've told a million times. You still have to touch on it regularly and remind people that that's who you are because that's how the audience keeps growing I love that and I'm such a firm believer in that as well as like I've come across this a lot with clients or like why don't want to repeat myself well you need to because. It doesn't matter how many times you've said what you do. There are new people finding you everyday and yes sometimes they might walk into court and middle of a conversation but if you have another aspect to where they can come back and get to know you or even if they get to know you from where you are now. Still utilizing your personality your stories your you. Then then the brand just gets bigger and bigger and that I think is. What we are starting to come back to you especially in social media is we are done with the polished. Bass babes kind of aspect and we want to connect with. Humans and we want to see how they really did it and that was definitely one of The Inspirations for this podcast is. Sharing how people have created what they created by not, if this isn't a this isn't a standard fix all right it's not like listen today for the top ten tips to marrying 60k in 60 seconds it's hi I was a mess in the corner but no I'm not but this has been like it's just kind of those things of like you need to find those connectors, and I'm sure especially as a copywriter like that's that's super important to you as well not only from a client level but just you Stephanie as the face of your, Brands its I love how you know your stories for those who starts talking Stephanie on Instagram it don't worry everything will be in the show notes or for those who already do. I love that we see all your different pieces and all your different facets because there is. Way more to you than just copywriting and that's so important for people to continue to not only share but to. Amplify because that's who you're hiring is yes you're an amazing copywriter and this is why I am the way that I am and I write the way that I write and I work the way that I work. A hundred percent like there's a million copywriters that you could choose from and you could choose ones with all different disciplines and all different angles that they like to use, and all these different skill sets and sure that that makes them a copywriter fine those the judges you know that's like the whole saying isn't it that anybody can be a parent but it takes someone special to be a mummy or take someone special to be a daddy like you don't biologically have to, be that have done that in order to have that role it's exactly the same with like business that you can be a copywriter is in you can write copy but that doesn't make you a business owner, who you are as a human being. Is what makes you the business owner of the things you've gone through the hardships you've suffered through the early life stages that you experienced all those things like then you know your human design all of those elements those are the things that make you a business owner not the actual, skill you have like that's just the thing you do that's not who you are and I have this reflection, writing a piece of copy for someone that's quite close to me and she'd been given the advice of keep the copy simple. And I read this on the brief and was like huh that jars. They've hired the wrong copywriter because it doesn't work for me that keep the coffee simple that's not that's not who I. Can I yes do I want to, no that's okay different things exactly yeah copywriter guess I can do it but being Stephanie's were a piece of copy that's what makes me a business owner. Hmm so you taught you just mentioned stories and this question came to me and you can answer this. However you want to which I mean by that is how deep you want to go what you said either talk about sharing stories what story. What story, do you actually this is even answer what are two ways either a What story do you love to share that you don't get to share very often because sometimes you do get so. Pound and honor Niche down into a copywriter and or is there a story that you've always wanted to share that. Just shows more of you that you've never really had the space to share before who a good question so the story of like how I came to. Running a business I don't feel I don't see. In other people's stories as much as I would probably like you know everybody says oh my story to entrepreneurship wasn't glamorous I had the corporate job and blah blah blah and I laughed and whatever and parts of that are true for me but it's way Messier I had more more terrible I was way younger actually than a lot of people I see that have that story so. I had I'd gone to University by did an English literature degree which I absolutely loved and then I made a series of choices that, actually put me at a level of life that I now look back on and think I cannot believe I stood for that, that level of life this is what end up leading me to become a business owner so I finished my degree got asked if I wanted to stay and do a master's which I don't know how it differs between the UK and, and anywhere else in the world but I Masters is your next step before you get your doctorate so your PhD yes and if you okay come and if you do it straight after University at only takes a year if you leave University and then you go back to your Masters it takes, so cost if I wanted to stay and do a masters at the same University I done an English degree so did I want to do some kind of English Masters said no to come home to a relationship that I knew wasn't great, then said yes to the first post-grad job I got offered which I knew wasn't great and the salary wasn't great and, guess what life was not great and continue to be known great for like six months until, just all came crumbling down all at the same time to think when we talk about this boundary setting this is why I had to put this into my life because I was the queen of. That's okay I'll cope and it was it doesn't lead you anywhere apartment to complete turmoil FYI spoiler alert that's what's going to happen to you spoiler alert so everything came crumbling down at the same time the guy that I was with who also knew that the relationship wasn't great ended up cheating on me I then had like a series of issues where I owned the house that we lived in so he got kicked out I had like dodgy housemate situations that went wrong my job got worse and worse and worse and I literally hated getting up every single day to the point where I ended up pretty much having I would class it now looking back and at the time I didn't recognize it but I had a breakdown really I just couldn't cope anymore I didn't sleep I was having that wine for dinner and I was like 23 it's way too young to be feeling that kind of way in that in that messy. I actually met my now husband, who's never worked for anyone and I actually thought I was mad I was like I don't. What are you doing he did the Maths for me on my corporate job and basically realized that I was making the same per hour in my corporate job that I had done at like 18 years old in a coffee shop oh Hearts huh. Yeah fun so I quit and I went back to the exact same coffee shop, you're like I'm going to be happier making the same amount of money fuck this exactly so I was like I have to just like burn it all to the ground thing and start again so burnt out of the ground when I walked in the coffee shop everyone was like what you do back here don't you have a degree or I thought you had a shiny job with a company car blah blah blah, just had to leave all about the door like fuck it whatever good things are coming for me moved out of my house moved into like a tiny bed set with my now husband and literally started again and he said if you could start again you know burn your life to the ground and start again what would you do. All right well I'd write and I will never forget the day I literally Googled how to make money from writing online it was like yeah five-and-a-half nearly six years ago and I gradually. Built the business from there so I joke that most women come to business from burnout breakup or breakdown or in some cases more fucking 3. Help yeah I take toll-free Wetzel house right done done and done and thank you for sharing that because. All too often we stay in situations because. We don't know what the other side is right and we think that if we stay in this situation it'll come to us we'll figure it out or have you. There are some and sometimes it does but for some of us, there is a Burn It To The Ground moment where you do need to start over I always think it's like you know new chapter or new book like that book is done or they're fun the book and all over the place burn the book and write a new one. And going back to spaces that make you happy and give you a capacity I know I did the same when my son was first born I was still a personal trainer at the time I was trying to go to people's houses and train his father was traveling with his job and I, couldn't make it work and so instead I stopped my own business and did online medical billing for my father's company virtually which. You guys probably don't have no me very long but obviously that it's not what I want to do. And I didn't like it but I appreciated the fact that it gave me the space to be home with my newborn. Make money and then really spend time and energy formulating what I want to do next is if we stay too long in that. Space that we are always in we're not giving ourselves the capacity to receive new information we shaking things up. And for that it's in whatever Choice can you make whether it's for financial reasons or mental emotional or all three, but what's the one decision that you can make that can alleviate the pressure off of one of those so that you can create space to leave the eighth rest. And sometimes it is burning it to the ground and tell him to people fuck it and Google how do I make money writing because it's like I love that the fact that you really didn't even know what you wanted to do. You do you love to write you knew you had certain indicators right but this has been such an evolutionary Journey for you in more ways than one yeah. So what I want to talk on that then with this snout was copywriting like the first thing that popped up and you're like oh that sounds cool or did you, go through a couple of different ideations before you found your groove so really the first thing that came up was blogging and at the time travel blogging with still really having a moment and you could really like monetize a travel blog and a travel YouTube I'd been blogging since I was about 14 I had like a Blog that is kind of like playing at at one stage I did actually have a YouTube channel that made me like I think about 200 pounds in the entire time I was running it that was back when you didn't need subscribers to monetize YouTube FYI I think the limit now is ridiculous so don't I was no YouTube Star let's not play so yeah it was like travel blogging. And I was like okay that, sounds cool so they there's lots of like couples selling courses about how to monetize a travel blog so you can travel around the world and I was like well that's great but one fucking single I just met I'd literally just met Josh in that at that time when I first was doing that Googling it was like that's not going to work and second of all I have no money because I have just left a job where okay fine I had. Okay salary but at the time it was like keeping me afloat to going to a waitressing job, why I work Less hours and I did in the corporate job so although the hourly rate was the same I wasn't making a hell of a lot of money still had rent to pay still had a great etcetera, like I care those ideas some fun but that's not gonna work so kind of like had a little look at like social media writing and like how that featured the very first client I had was a wedding photographer who was friends with my now husband good seen a LinkedIn post that I put up that my husband had shared saying my new girlfriend's looking for you know some online work blah blah so I started off doing social media management for this one client but because he was super Visual and I were super wordy the captions were great but he was getting me to do a lot of like collage building and things with these like gorgeous gorgeous wedding photos and let me tell you I sucked. Robot wiring not my wiring I may as well be colorblind I do not see color matching at all that's why I wear all neutrals because it's just safe he was also explained to me about like different heights in photos to making sure you have things that were from like a wide angle and whatever anyway my sock is not my monkeys are so bad at so learned very quickly that the visual side of things wasn't going to work the next company was a friend of his who had a nap that produced content for Backpackers so I had done a lot of backpacking before I went to University and various different countries so jumped into that and that was long-form copywriter that was the first time I started really getting into long-form copy big blog posts big travel guides, and then the adjoining emails to promote them and it was from that point I started to realize I like this kind of like getting people in the door making sales or you know promoting somebody to take an action of some kind of some kind of way even if it's just oh my goodness this is so funny that's my job and I'm really fucking get it so how can I do more of that and it kind of Grew From There into their psyche. High conversion copywriting but, I like I'd like to think we're funny as fuck because you're funny as fuck someone tell my husband is that sprinkle as often as I can but it it's that it's that element as well that. You find your jam but then you add you got to add your own spice to it like. Again this for those who want to be a copywriter business or even those who are list either and the corporate world that would have built up that way. You still need to do it as you yes you do need a groom yourself you did you don't need to you know mold yourself into something in order to be successful Where You Are. It's you and so the more that you can honor that and the way that people can see that the more that you will actually not only. Grow but you'll grow in the right spaces because you're not giving anybody any false pretenses and I'm not saying that people you know live but get on social media it's so easy so here in Illinois they banned some of the filters, mmm I've Instagram because of facial facial recognition of all blah I loving it but. Let me tell you some people are not happy about it because they were really liking that they could even just those little bit of alterations to make them feel more comfortable or feel what have you. As those little things of like you don't need a filter to attract a client just like you don't need a sales funnel you I mean there's all these things that we think we need to do or need to have need to be in order to finally get to where we're going. Instead of just keep going like yeah learn and evolve and share because I mean the fact that you started your business. Not even know you what a copywriter was and Googling to now five years later having a firm with multiple employees and, again and I've known you since I mean I guess it's almost close to day one of them because I mention really shortly thereafter. Of even your boundaries then of you know you were just dating Josh and then you got engaged and they got married I'm finding all of these other things in life that you knew you wanted to enjoy and therefore. You needed to make. Different shifts in different branches like the the boundaries that you set I'm sure five years ago are way different either they've oh yeah no longer needed. Or they've expanded into something that's just it moves with you right so nothing is ever. Cut and dry its this is your boundary for now and then re reassessment and shift with me today, exactly exactly and the word boundary itself I think the why we like pull away from it is it sounds like limitation like it sounds like a box and we're like oh so I can only operate them within these with these fears like it's fixed so like you say it's not fixed for one it can move and I also liked something that you said earlier around things not to do seal of the things like not to do if we don't have any boundaries we think we might think that's better because we have no limitations okay no boundaries no limitations I'm just going to keep going, but because you're just keeping going. But there's no boundary like I'm doing a visual representation imagine it's like tram lines if you have boundaries you're walking within the tramlines you're walking in a straight line you are going linear you're getting somewhere right you're moving forward, if there are no boundaries and there is no tramline and there's no edges and you're just like I can do whatever you're going to fucking go all over the shop left to right left right it's going to take you so long to get to the other side of let's say we know crossing a metaphorical field and you know what's going to happen in the meantime we're going to fall and slip in a cow Pat you're going to twist your ankle in a little thicker or whatever like. You're leaving too much room for yourself to stumble stumbling is okay sometimes if you can stumble Within. The safety of boundaries that you've set for yourself that just keep you safe that's a great place in which to do to do that stuff and those layers you were talking about adding on like I need this filter I need to add all that's doing is detracting you From the Path and the boundaries that you need to set in order to move forward as you you're just like looking over there like oh. Find what the blinkers need to be in this moment for you to keep moving forward whatever that is fuck what anybody else thinks put your blinkers on that you've custom-designed and just move forward, don't have the other shit Inn it's not needed and then I had a second even with children right children even need parameters because you can give a child. A million decisions I be my child especially being autistic but any child typical or atypical if you give away too many options there has going to fuckin explode but when you say hey. How about you know given. Give him two or three then they have the parameters be like okay I know this I know this is and then they can actually really think it through and it's the exact same way if you. Try to leave it way to open and receive way too much information you're never going to have the true space to really break it down you're just going to be start saying yes to everything because it's somewhat in an alignment or, why are you and then all of a sudden you are completely overextended completely overwhelmed and I know both you and I even though we're saying this now, have done that and we are getting better at not doing it so please do not think that neither state is study and I are perfect and gotten over this but it is those boundaries or at least it not only lessons the happenings. We recognize them faster when they do so we give ourselves more space and permission to reassess reapply and move on. For sure I think you see a lot especially you know you say we've grown and changed I think it shows up for us a lot harking back to like our accountability relationship is our goal setting, is that if you give yourself one goal that doesn't have any clear, parameters like an example for myself as I set a big Financial goal for a whole year I was like I want to make this much in a whole year. But I didn't give myself any kind of goes off okay I want to make this percentage from this specific package or this specific this percentage for this specific launch so. I was just kind of like stuck it and sees for some spaghetti at the wall see what happens I had no idea how I was actually going to get to that goal because I hadn't, specified to myself will given myself the boundaries within which to work had I done that I probably would have got there faster and also with a lot less stress because I would have just focused on okay fifty percent of what I want to makes coming from over here 25 coming from over here so I knew how much energy and time to invest in that like, saying you want to be a millionaire you can do that however the fuck you want you could sell all your organs like whatever you want to do you could become a millionaire that's so vague. How yeah under what circumstances in what time frame doing what with who like all of those all of those questions those things like that you need to put them in in place but as we've said a lot throughout this episode it translates so much. Personally professionally emotionally mentally to have. Parameters you can tell I'm not a hedonist or particularly spontaneous sounds of nature support to find mean in the best way, yeah and I'm again I'm glad that you give itself as like we have so many different personalities throughout this podcast, add myself included and that's why I love having people that have different. Functioning than I do I think that's why we've always worked well as great accountability partners because you are definitely way more structured in a beautiful way that I am. But that's also. You keep me accountable in that fact of we'll have you thought of this or at like you think of things I'm like no I didn't think that's really I do the flip it I I like to think that. Because I am a little bit more flowy I give you that recipes of what are your goals what are your numbers lightning and sometimes we just have Hangouts where we just. Events and talk about personal things because we just need to. Get them out and then business comes later so show for show and I like that that's all I'll boundary, has has changed with each other as our I feel like even the way that we run our accountability calls together now as I changed so much over the years we do it so different like let's just first of all. What the fuck about this and oh my God I hate this let me just that happens first and then it's like Okay cool so laughing is good to hear yes and where are you at Bristol we've changed the way that we do things and other times a way more business-focused then the whatever but again when I talk about the white space earlier we've almost given ourselves that little container pocket. That we have it can be whatever we feel called to have or need in that moment when we speak to each other and we tend to move in Fairly similar season so it works really well it's very cohesive. Hmm hmm hmm study this is the fucking awesome absolutely more. Thank you so much for spending your time with us sharing your energy your passion your Insight definitely when it comes to boundaries like so many good nuggets that I know I will be ready down when this what I listen to this episode more and more as we close our time together are there any parting words or anything you would like to share before we go. Yes actually a phrase that was said to me by a coach a few years ago and I keep circling back to it and it's also now one of my husband's favorites to the point where we will shout at each other across the house if it is not a hell yes. It's a hell no. So if you are asking yourself do I need to set a boundary around this do I want to do this has the situation come up before made me feel exactly the same way if you're not looking at something going that is a hell yes I want to see that person I want to take this call I want to work with them you know personal or professional. Then it's a hell no and that is absolutely fine and if you notice something that you say hell no to repeatedly. You need to probably take some time to yourself to be like cool this is something I always say hell no to, maybe it's something I don't put myself forward for anymore maybe it's something I take out my diary maybe it's a person I no longer see or whatever so yeah that would be my parting I've been elaborated on it somewhat but that would be The Parting phrase if it's not how yes it's a he'll fucking no. I love that and what a way to end it because that just sums up, everything of checking your boundaries and reassessing them and I love that you did add on to it of if you're continuously saying Hell no to the same situation what then do you need to shift so those opportunities just. Are no longer coming to your weather personal professional, Propel yes all right Stephanie thank you thank you again for being here today listeners everything that you need to know to stop connects all the things and Stephanie will be in the show notes. Thank you all again for listening and we'll see you next time don't lie. Music. So much for listening to this epic episode all of the resources and links connected to it will be in our show notes located on our website more than. Stop bus route.com if you like this episode which I would be shocked if you did not go ahead and hit that like subscribe review and share, also remember that this episode and all others have been made possible by Financial contributions and support from listeners like you so if you would like to hear more stories of how epic humans are more than just pop on over to our GoFundMe and make a contribution. Also don't forget to follow us on Instagram at more than just podcast thanks again. Music.