More Than Just a Journalist with Rob Deptford (he/him)

In this episode I’m joined by Rob Deptford (he/him). Together, we discuss the podcast industry, storytelling, and how audio can help build a strong brand identity.

We also discuss:

• The state of podcasting and where it is post-pandemic boom
• How McDonald’s used a podcast in its brand strategy (and brought back the infamous Szechuan sauce)
• Podcasting as an evergreen product that continues to add value over time
• The power of the personal element in branding
• Why the numbers aren’t the best measure of your podcast’s success
• Being willing to go off-brand and share yourself more holistically with your audience

Links:

• Visit the Bizcastly Website
• Visit Rob’s Website
• Listen to Rob’s Podcast Dirt Road Journeys
• Buy Rob’s Books on Amazon
• Follow Mel on Instagram @mel_mcsherry
• Follow the podcast on Instagram @morethanjustpodcast

🙌 This podcast is supported by listeners like you! If you enjoyed this episode, we'd appreciate it if you could make a donation of any amount at this link. You rock!

Transcript

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Music. I'm your host, Mel McSherry. On this podcast, we share how we are more than just descriptors and titles that identify us in our lives, our businesses, and our communities. In this safe common room space, you'll hear stories of success and lessons learned from, myself and other misfits, entrepreneurs, and change makers. My intention is to inform, connect, and expand our knowledge so we can be mentally, emotionally, financially profitable as we create the change we desire. My promise is that from each episode, you'll take away not only inspiration and a connection to someone you never knew before, but also the encouragement, the action steps and the support. So you can create what you want. Music. Hello everyone. Welcome back to season two of more than just, I am your host, Mel and I am so excited to be sharing a space with a new connection of mine. Up until now, I've been interviewing people that I've had a pretty lucrative, I guess is the first word, but pretty deep connection to. And today's guest, Rob, him and I met through a mutual connection. I was honored to be a part of his podcast, which I'm sure we will get to, and just instantly hit it off. It's always so cool to meet somebody, through somebody, and have an instant connection. So thank you so much, Rob, for being on here and spending time with us today. Hey, thanks for inviting me on. Sometimes I think I scare people away when they come on my show. But, you know. It's how you filter out your connections, right? Yeah, I think so. I think so. It's good to be invited back onto a show where people have been online and have that reciprocation. It's great. Yeah, well, I'm so excited to have you. So I always love to start off the conversation with a question and the question is this. Rob, what would you say is your main title or identifier or descriptor and how are you more than just? You know, I struggle with this and I've listened to your show, other episodes of your show and I do struggle with this because I don't like labels and if you were to look at my history, we tend to identify ourselves by what we do in our careers, right? I suppose in theory, I'm a journalist. That's what I went to school for, right? To have a journalism degree. I went to a tech school too, to do the broadcast stuff. So. Yeah, I mean I'm a journalist but it's interesting. I haven't – when you look at the course of my career, I haven't spent the bulk of my career working in journalism. I've applied those skills to other things. So I'm a journalist, sure, but I'm definitely more than just a journalist and if we get into that discussion, I think it could be interesting because I mean we all have skills that apply to multiple things we do, right? Yeah, definitely. Do you see a common thread between what initially attracted you to wanting to be a journalist and what you do now? Oh, for sure. I mean, it's communication skills, right? It's an interest in what's happening around us. That's a big part of it. I think I've always been a pretty good observer. And taken an interest in things like current events, right? So that's part of it. But being able to take information and distill it and be able to then tell it to other people in a way that's interesting to them, that really is the journalism skill set. And it certainly was something that I had an interest in before I even got into journalism. That's probably part of what drove me to go into that career. And boy, have things changed since I started, right? So I remember we used to have newspapers and there are very few around anymore. Right. It's funny the things that you think about that kids – I have an 11-year-old, what he will never knew existed. We actually had a really funny conversation about the facts that there were phones that were connected to the wall. Because when he found out the year that cell phones were created, he looked at me and goes, does that mean you and daddy didn't have phones when you were bored? Like, well, no. We just didn't have them in our pockets. Right, exactly. And newspapers is another thing. I had an amazing teacher in fifth or eighth grade. I went to a really small Christian school. And one of the things he did to encourage us to read the paper every morning was he would write a quiz question on the top of the chalkboard that came from the front page so just to read the front page of the newspaper and if you got it right you were in a drawing to win a dollar at the end of the week. And that instilled such a habit to me that even though I don't get a paper here in Chicago, when I go home to Arizona and my parents still get a paper, that is still the first thing I do with my coffee is just peruse the front page of the paper and see just kind of like how the news is different depending on where you are in the world or where you are in the country, I guess. Yeah. I mean, there's nostalgia in that for us, right? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. If you can find a newspaper still, that's terrific. I mean, it's a different experience. But I think the challenge in newspapers nowadays is as soon as it's published, it's old news. So what is it that you do now? Well, so I do a lot of things and some of them for money, right? I love that description. I might be stealing that. And please tell us all of it because this is more than just money on this platform for sure. Yeah, it's funny when you get into entrepreneurship, the path meanders quite a bit for a lot of people and we explore and we experiment and I've done quite a few different things over the years but right now what I'm into is in the digital space, I've always looked for ways to apply that communication skill set. So right now what I'm doing is in the podcast space, trying to help companies get into that space and create what we call a branded podcast or some people call it an enterprise podcast. A way for companies to reach out to their specific audience and bring them into a brand experience, right? Bring them into their ecosystem and hopefully have them want to stay there and be a part of that brand experience. I love that. So what inspired you to maneuver and I'm sure it wasn't like an overnight, ooh, this is what I'm going to do. So definitely feel free to walk us through however far this journey goes. But what inspired you to maneuver from traditional quote unquote journalism to this avenue of showing the profitable and connective benefits of a corporation having a podcast? I think it's an adaptation to what's happening in the environment, right? So we've still got. A fairly healthy traditional broadcast industry out there, although it has really evolved. Not every little market has a radio station anymore. There's a lot of syndication that's happened over the years but with the evolution of what's happened in the digital space, social media, the explosion of podcasts, there's something like 2.4 million podcasts now. Wow. That's one of the recent numbers I saw. Of course, with the pandemic, a lot of people were stuck inside and thought, hey, you know, something – That was their initial move, yeah. Maybe I could start a podcast. Some people started really good ones and some people probably shouldn't have bothered. We've since seen things slow down in terms of that explosion and I think what's going to be left at the end of the day is going to be some of the better quality stuff. But for me it was really okay now there's this opportunity. In a space that is generally speaking booming. And the problem companies have is it's noisy out. There. So you're always kind of looking for where is my audience going and how can I best reach them. And we know people are not necessarily listening to ads anymore either, right? So we've got to find better ways to bring people into what I call their ecosystem. And podcasting is a great way to do it right now. People are listening to podcasts. Podcast listenership just keeps going up every year. McDonald's actually had a podcast in 2018. That was the first one I stumbled upon. Really? Yeah. So that was kind of the light bulb moment for me. McDonald's did this three episode podcast called The Sauce and the way they created it, back in 2015, there was a hip podcast called Cereal and it was this sort of investigative, true crime type. Podcast. So McDonald's created their sauce podcast modeled after Cereal, the hip podcast. So yeah, three episodes, all less than 20 minutes, and it's this story about what happened to the Szechuan sauce, the chicken nugget sauce that McDonald's had. Apparently it was a brief sauce available, I think in the United States only, because I'm in Canada and I don't remember ever seeing it. But it was so popular that, you know, the stories that fans are out and sort of chanting and raving and wanting the return of this sauce. So then the story unfolds, right? The executives are talking about what happened to the recipe and if we can't find it, can we replicate it or duplicate it? Can we reintroduce this sauce? And it was actually tied to a campaign of bringing this Szechuan sauce back in certain markets. Clever. Back in those days, right? And it was very successful as it turned out, it cracked the top 100 on Apple Podcasts. So I was like, okay, well this was kind of a pioneering moment that McDonald's got into the podcast space with. There are other brands that can do this. They may just not know it's available and they may not know how. So you start doing some digging and there are a bunch of others that are into the space but it's big, giant, multinational, conglomerate brands. It's MasterCard, it's Shopify, it's Sephora, it's GE. I mean all these big brands have entered the space, but what about. The law firm down the street or the travel agency across town or other businesses that aren't ginormous brands but still have a story to tell that they could tell to their specific audience. So that's where we saw the opportunity and thought, hey, we could get into this and help people do it. So either by creating a show for them, we could do that or we could actually coach people to get in and create their own stuff which in the long term is probably a better plan if if you're going to keep doing the show. Yeah. Why – I mean, out of all of the individuals and avenues that people can utilize podcasting for, what was it specifically for you on why you wanted to connect to businesses and also in tandem with it, why do you feel it's important for businesses to utilize something like podcasting? Well, the connection part is if you're going to start a business, it has to be viable. You look at what are the optional models and so you got B2B or B2C. We could go help somebody across the street start a personal podcast, that would be okay. But it would be challenging to do and be profitable with that kind of a model. Just as an example, it's difficult to see numbers out there, but that McDonald's podcast, when you look at, you know, as I said, three 20 minute episodes and you look at the production value that they put into it, the rumor is that it was close to a $50,000 production for three episodes. Wow. And when you're a giant brand like McDonald's, that's a drop in the bucket out of your marketing budget. A person in the neighborhood starting a personal podcast doesn't have that kind of cash to invest. So, you know, we looked at, well, what's the business opportunity? So B2B is where there's an opportunity for us to create a business and also an opportunity on the other side for the businesses who might want to take advantage of that. So that was part of it. And it should be, right? Anybody starting a business has to look at, can you create a business that's profitable? Yeah, and also, how are the different ways that you can share your business, can share who you are and share it in a way that is in, in alignment with, you know, and this is so important to me, with your time, your energy, the way you want to share your story. And I know that there are those more preached out avenues of Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, you know, and others TikTok throw that in. But I'm curious in kind of those lines of avenues, I mean, I would assume you see podcasting as kind of an all encompassing, But what? If any differences have you found with a company utilizing something like a podcast in parallel with or maybe – I don't want to say in competition but as opposed to just doing Instagram, LinkedIn, those traditional kind of imprints. I think you got to have a multifaceted approach anyway, right? So social media is a big part, an important part of any marketing strategy or branding strategy. Podcasting really is a branding tool more so than a traditional marketing or sales tool. The world is full of commercials, right? People don't like to listen to commercials anymore. The advantage of podcasting is again, that brand experience. How do you want to be known? If you listen to some of what's out there, most of the branded podcasts are not actually plugging any of their products and services. General Electric, for example, their podcast, they did one called The Message, which is a sci-fi show. Cool. When you start listening to it, it really is entertainment more than anything else. And how does it tie into the GE brand? Well, for years and years, one of the slogans of GE was imagination at work. What is sci-fi, right? Imagination at work. So, it may be subtle, but it draws people in and that's really the point, is to provide people reason to come into your experience that you're providing. The thing with podcasting compared to social media too, is social media is very competitive now. It's tough to get that organic reach unless you occasionally get one of those posts that goes viral. Even that, those flash in the pan things are not a good long term strategy because there's no methodology behind it. There's no formula to follow to get a viral post or to guarantee it anyway. With podcasting, you're creating an evergreen product, right? It's out there as long as you leave it up, published. You have an opportunity, especially in a more niche market, maybe you are a travel agency or. A law firm or a butcher shop or a bakery or something like that where you can really niche down in your programming and sure, you might be one of those 2.4 million podcasts out there on Spotify and Apple and Google and all of the other platforms but because you're so niche and you're talking directly to your audience. If you're publishing once a month even, well, there's only about 300,000 of those 2.4 million podcasts that publish once a month. There's only about 150,000 that publish weekly. So, of the millions and millions and millions of social media posts out there and you're trying to stand out amongst those, well, it's a whole lot easier from a competition perspective to create a podcast and even if you're publishing monthly, right? You're one of 300,000 and maybe less if you've got a really small, very targeted niche. And I love that your intention behind this is to show how they are more than just this corporation, right? To share their different facets, to share how they are part of the community, who's part of their culture, that deeper, because for so long, I mean, I know, I'm kind of broadening this on larger corporations, but we can definitely, you know, hone this into smaller ones. When you have a company, a lot of people think or a product, especially they're like, well, they don't need to hear about me, you know, the creator, they just want, I just want to teach people about the products, but you are the. Product. And nowadays, we want to support people like we want to support a vision we want to support, we want to feel a part of something. And though Instagram can be great for those viral nuggets that you can share and be repeated. Having something like a podcast is where you can sit with people and just have a conversation. Because you know they're coming into it knowing that this could be anywhere from five minutes to, I mean, some people's podcast episodes are three hours long. And they have thousands upon thousands of downloads. So it's that quality of, and it's so interesting because a post that I have on Instagram, I love redefining words inside of entrepreneurship because it's come to my attention that there's a lot of these traditional words that we have either a negative context to or just dulled them down to a process like consistency. And consistency to us in the entrepreneurial world has been preached. You have to post certain amount of times a day, post here, be here. This is your consistency and consistency is in the numbers. Whereas I love to think it as, let's reframe that to not consistency and repetitive motions, but consistency in which how you step into that space when you feel called to do so. Because if it's that consistency of quality that people get, they're going to wait as long as they need to wait to get another post from you or listen to another episode from you, because they know when it's there, it's valuable, it's connective, and it's something that they really want to have in their life. It's so beautiful to hear you not only embrace that, and I love your podcast as well, which I want to talk about that, but also the fact of showing how profitable, and to me that's mentally, emotionally, and financially, having something like a podcast can be for a business because it is more than just the services that they provide. Yeah, and it's funny. It's timely because I released an episode as we're recording this, the last episode of my podcast went up and it was my first solo episode actually. I did one just myself with no guest. I thought I needed to demonstrate that, right? Because it is possible. Yeah. But I talked about this idea of you mentioned you are the product or you are the service or You are the brat. This is not new. This is something that if you think about some of the big names you see in the social media space and in the podcast space and elsewhere, you know, the Gary Vaynerchuks and the podcast, I titled it actually, What I Learned About Umbrellas from Gary Vaynerchuks. You have to listen to that and see what the lesson is in that. Yeah. But the concept really is, so Gary Vaynerchuk, Richard Branson, Warren Buffett, Oprah Winfrey, right? There are these names that are bigger than their brands, that are bigger than their company brands. And people appreciate that because they appreciate the human touch, they appreciate the humanization of the brand. So the personal branding factor is huge and it's not something that traditionally companies have focused on. So that's an element that podcasting allows you to bring into your brand experience as well, that relationship building, right? Something that's relatable to people, the storytelling that can come with it and the storytelling from different angles. And this is where the umbrella metaphor came into this episode is it isn't just your products and services. It isn't just the problems you as a business solve. It's also like with Gary Vaynerchuk, he talks about the New York Jets and he talks about sports cards. He loves the Jets. And he talks about garage sales and wine, right? Because that was his dad's business. So he's got all of these things that are not services that VaynerMedia provides, but they still draw an audience. Yeah, because it's part of him and it's part of his journey. And it's also things that he is involved in that he's passionate about. And I love that you brought that forward because it's this interesting. Conversation again of like niching down, like what really is that? And sometimes we tend to negate. A lot of what actually makes us who we are inside of our brand, inside of our company, because it's not quote unquote connected to our business when, well, it's you. So if it's all coming from you, it's connected. So why not? Yeah. So why not talk about it? Why not sprinkle it in? Like you don't have to chop off pieces of yourself because you think it's not relevant when It's all you. It's all relevant. It's all relevant and it's a long game by the way. Like sales people listen to this stuff and they go, well, I'm not converting a sale out of that activity. Well, not today. Probably not today. But with a person like Gary Vee, maybe I need some media services at some point. And I'm thinking about who am I going to hire? And over time, I've gotten to know Gary Vaynerchuk as a person through, because he's omnipresent, right? He's everywhere. And gee, you know, I like going to garage sales too. And I'm a fan of the New York Jets. I'm not actually, but if I were, that might be part of what influences me to choose to hire Gary's business to help me. Yeah. So that's how it works. It's about building loyalty. It's about building trust. It's about enabling people to get to know you and maybe like you a little bit and maybe have you top of mind when you actually need what that company provides. And they see the person as the face of that company. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Hey friends, liking the episode? Pretty epic, isn't it? Well, guess what? This episode and all others have been made possible by financial support and contributions from listeners like you. So if you would like to continuously hear how these epic humans are more than just, go ahead and head over to our GoFundMe and make a contribution. Cool? Alright, let's get back to the magic. So what inspired you to start your own podcast? And tell us a little bit more about the premise of that and walk us through it, Rob. So, Dirt Road Journeys was an experiment. I was never going to podcast because what I was doing before was going in and doing a lot of corporate training stuff, right? Leadership coaching and and speaking as a part of that. A lot of that dried up during the pandemic, right? So, some of the motivation was to figure out, okay, the world is changing, what's next for me? And the podcast space, you know, not that I was necessarily one of the billions that flooded the podcast space during the pandemic just because it was something to do, but it was an experiment. It was a way to, again, apply the skill set that I I had grown up with, right? With journalism at my foundation and see if there was some opportunity there for me to at least exercise my creative abilities to start with, get them sharpened again, let's say. And then kind of go from there and see whether or not it was worth pursuing. So I did a season of dirt road journeys, had some people on who for the most part I knew, so they would be kind to me when I made all my mistakes, right? When I jumped back into it. But it wasn't bad. Once I got started, it was kind of like, all right, well, this is like the old radio days. It's just a little bit of a different interface, let's call it, right? I'm sitting in my house instead of in a soundproof booth in a radio station. Yeah. So, it wasn't quite like jumping back on a bicycle, but it came back fairly easily to me. And then it became a question of, okay, well, what am I going to do with this? I can do it now. I've got the skill. I can do it. What is the purpose of this? And everything just kind of started to fall into place when we got into the branded podcasting stuff on the business side of things. And Dirt Road Journeys, that became a way for me to, again, demonstrate what's possible in the podcast space, but also a way to give back a little bit. Because those people who are... The person across the street like we were talking about earlier, they don't have $50,000 to do a big high production value podcast, but they still need to be heard. Yeah. And so, Dirt Road Journeys became really an opportunity to bring people in and give them a space to chat about what it is they offer the world and not have to pay for it. If you don't have a marketing budget, what do you do, right? So, this is a way to continue to do what we do and to do what I do fairly well and also give back and have it part of my brand experience too if you will. Yeah, yeah. A way for people to see what we do. And I love that it started off as an experiment. You know, there's always this sense of perfectionism around entrepreneurship that, well, I can't launch anything until I know exactly what I'm doing and where it's going to be and why am I doing it and la, la, la. And for some of us, we literally are designed to only learn through experimentation. And I tell my clients that all the time of, if it's something that is passionate to you, like let's actually release any sort of, you know, end game around it. Let's not even try to attach it to anything. If this is something that you would love to do, again, even to the McDonald's side, it's three episodes that you just want to share three pieces of your story. Then see how that fits and see how it feels and see what's kind of your, you know, ROI, mentally, emotionally. And, you know, down the road, possibly financially, and then see where it fits in that. And I love that that's what you did, that you gave yourself that space to, you know, not only practice what you preach, but in a sense of, I just, I want to do this. I want to, I have the time for it. This seems like something that's really profitable for me to use my time in. And then from there it grew into something. Yeah. And I would say it's still evolving. Yeah. I don't know what might be next for it, but we're only in season two of Dirt Road Journeys. And that was a surprise to me. I actually, at one point in season one, I thought, oh, this isn't working. I really don't know where I'm going with this. And just other circumstances in life kind of guided me back to doing a season 10. And so far so good, right? So we'll see where it goes. Yeah, I love that, too, that not what you commit to, you don't always have to commit to. You can always say, OK, I'm done, or it can have a pause and, you know, evolve it when you want to evolve or when it feels called to evolve it. Or sometimes it's just a experiment that you don't want to do anymore. And you have that experience and you take it and move on. So I love that you mentioned that because, again, I think there's so much pressure we put on ourselves as business owners, as entrepreneurs, you know, even corporations that when we say yes to something, we really got to make sure that this is like legit commit doing this till, you know, the day we die kind of ideal instead of this is what suits who we are, what we do, our energy, our intention now and as that shifts, let's see what our avenues are that continue to shift with us and what are the ones that we need to let go. And I honestly don't think, and I don't know why we think this sometimes, I don't think anybody is keeping score. I don't think somebody is like, oh, they watched the podcast. Well, check my – check that off. Well, that didn't last. Oh, now they're over here. Now we'll see how long that – like nobody is really sitting there keeping track of you. This is about you, not about them really. Exactly, yeah. And you know what? If your podcast dies, you have to give it a chance by the way. Yes. You have to – if you're going to commit to it, podcasting isn't easy, right? It's a commitment. And you have to be prepared to give it a chance. But if you do three episodes or 10 episodes or. 20 episodes or whatever it is you do and you decide, hey, it's not for me and the podcast dies, it doesn't lose the value that it created to start with. Again, it's evergreen content, right? So if you leave it up there, leave it published, there's still going to be an audience that stumbles upon that stuff now and again that gets the value out of that content that you've created. And hey, who knows, if you pick it up again someday, you just continue to add to that. But it's one of those things, like the model. For years, musicians followed this model, right? You'd go in and you'd record an album and the album still exists. It exists forever and you continue to make sales on the album. Well, you're not necessarily making sales off of a podcast episode, but it lives on and it lives on forever unless you take it down. So, you continue to provide the entertainment or the education or whatever the content of that episode happens to be without you having to do any more work for it. So it really is a very convenient way to get some branding material out there to your audience. I'm so glad you said that and I'm so agree because again, I feel like we have been indoctrinated into this, you know, what is the quick return? What is the, you know. Let's look at this offer and what was the conversion and well, that didn't work, that didn't number so let's turn around and do something else. It's the longevity of it that is so beautiful, because you're right. You've already put that energy out there, so you don't have to do it anymore. And people will find you when they find you. And if it resonates with them and is still important to you, then that is somebody who can come to you in the future and already feel like they know you, because you've touched on something in that time and space that they've found in their time and space that connected to them. And so that is such a beautiful reminder that when you do produce something, it's not about really how it performs right then and there, it's what is it continuing to add into when it comes to the value that you want to provide and the quote unquote solution or product or whatever you want to offer to people. So thank you for saying that because I think we all need to hear that as often as possible. Well, and there's evidence of it everywhere if you look around, right? Yeah. Well, I mean, books, right? Yeah. I mean, I've got a few books on Amazon and I'm not getting rich off of them by any stretch but I wrote them because books lend credibility to what you do and I've got the on-camera confidence handbook that I – I know this is audio so people can't see when I show you on camera but trust me, there's a book in my hand. There'll be a link in the show notes, I promise you. It exists. You know, this is one of the things that I thought, oh, I need to put something together for when I was coaching speaking and speaking to camera in particular. And again, it lends credibility to what you do. And I don't make a ton of book sales. I honestly don't. But every now and then I get the email from Amazon and it's like, hey, you've got five bucks or something. The royalties are terrible from Amazon. But you know, it's five bucks that I didn't have yesterday. And it's a book that I put together a couple of years ago. So this is how it works. So yeah, once you create that value, it can really do wonders for you for a long period of, Yeah, I agree. I, you know, I wrote my book in 2020. And it's the same. I don't make a ton of time. Money off of it. But it is fun when I get those KDP reports from Amazon, or my book is also on lulu.com, by the way, which has much better royalties. I'll send that over to you. But but just that you or you know, somebody who just discovered it and asked me to be on their podcast, and we had this really lovely conversation. And I hadn't talked about the book in a while, because, you know, it was kind of past the launch and past things. So for me, too, it was really beautiful to sit back into that space and talk about it and see how it's continuing to reach people. And, you know, it's not necessarily the pace, it's the sustainability that's more important to me. I would much rather have something that in the long run will continue to add value and continue to create that momentum. Then, like you said, a flash in the pan of all of of a sudden 50,000 people know me because of one TikTok or because of one post and then. Have that disappear because I'm no longer popular because it's not anything that's super anchored. Does that make sense? Totally. Yeah. Because yeah, maybe you got 50,000 views on something, but from whom? Yeah. That's the question. Yeah. Who's seeing what you've created? And yeah, maybe you've created something that appeals to the masses. I talk about this with podcast ratings too, right? It's going to climb the charts on Apple podcasts or Spotify or whatever, but is it really the right measure? If you're creating something that's entertaining and built for mass appeal, then sure, it probably makes sense to follow the ratings or the impressions on social media or whatever it might be. But if you're really doing something with a purpose for your specific audience, there are probably better ways to measure than just the broad impressions or the mass appeal ratings. You have to find a way to get some feedback from your audience. What is it about that content that people appreciate that you can create more of that's going to expand your target audience rather than the masses? Because that really is what leads to – especially for business purposes, that's the way you want to grow. Yeah, 100%. It's quality over quantity. Every time. I mean, it's the numbers games like, yes, and like, numbers to me are, they're just numbers. They're just measurables. They don't tell me who are behind those numbers. What is it that they're receiving? How can I continue to, you know, serve them to support them and all of those things. So, and I think really, we're coming to a point where a lot of companies, a lot of businesses, a lot of people are really starting to shift that perspective away from the analytics from, you know, the numbers to, you know, here's the quality of what I'm receiving. Yes, I may have, you know, so for example, this podcast, yes, I may have lower quote unquote downloads, however, they're consistent. And I have like, but a really high percentage of interaction with it. So that to me, is way better than if I had, you know, 10,000 and downloads of my first episode because people are emailing me and they're emailing the guests and we're having conversations and it's really building something that again is this sustainable change instead of just something that's going to put a feather in my cap or just. Tick a metrics box. Yeah, that's the humanizing factor, right? You have the opportunity to establish relationships with those people who do engage and that engagement is one of the quality measures. The vanity metrics are nice, don't get me wrong. Like if you see you've got a thousand likes on a post or something on social media or you've got 10,000 downloads of your podcast, well hey, I'm not going to turn my nose up at that. No, not at all. It's nice to see but at the same time, I go back to who is it that's downloaded or reacted or whatever the response has been. Are they people that I'm trying to reach and if it's not, lot. What can I do differently to fine tune so that I do reach my target audience? And that's a bit of a process. You are unlikely to get the first podcast episode or that one. Social media post or whatever it is. You're unlikely to get it right without some work and some fine tuning. I love it. So we've been talking just a lot about, you know, your journey. We've been talking a lot about podcasting, which is so fun because I haven't somebody on here to really nerd out on that. But with all beautiful advice that you've given and all of the things, I'm just curious, what would you say is your personal mission when it comes to– it could be podcasting or it could just be kind of what the umbrella of podcasting to go back to what you were talking about earlier. What would you say is kind of your mission around utilizing this or why you feel this is so important for others to step into? Well, it's not podcasting for sure. That just happens to be the tool right now. The mission really is to help people tell their story. Whether it's business related or personal stuff, all of that stuff can fall under the umbrella, so to speak. But you have to tell it in a way that engages people because we've been talking about engagement. You have to tell it in a way that engages people, that captivates people, that educates or entertains or does something that makes people want to tune in and come back for more. Whether you do that on a podcast or you do it on a stage or on camera, maybe you've got a YouTube channel or something, right? However you deliver, there are ways to do it well. I don't think everybody necessarily considers that because there are a lot of speakers out there, right? If you look at LinkedIn as an example and you looked at headlines that people have on their LinkedIn profiles, there's a ton that say they're a speaker of some kind, a keynote speaker or whatever it might be, which is great but you know, they're an engineer who's also a speaker or they're a restaurant manager who's also a speaker or they're a contractor who's also a speaker or whatever. I assume they speak on their expertise, which is fine, but they're not necessarily familiar with the skill set of speaking. They're just doing it because they're in the space where somebody else wants their expertise, so they get asked to jump on a stage and talk about how they make concrete or something, right? Whatever it might be in their industry. So they do it and hope it goes well and hope the audience appreciates it. Some people a natural at it. But there actually is a skill set that you can apply. And so, that's really what I'm in business to do and what my mission is, even personally, right? Is to help people tell their story, to get it out there to the people who would appreciate it most. Yeah, however that might be, whatever the best tool is for any particular person or company. Yeah, because your story is important And I get asked a lot, well, I'm a drop in a bucket of coaches or a drop in a bucket of this, that, or the other. What makes me different? You do. It's your story. It's how you talk about what you do and what you share and how you share it. But the beauty and the most important part is sharing it. People can't assume and shouldn't guess who you are or what you do, because that's just inviting. Too much of the unknown for you. Whereas you could have so much more, you know, quote unquote control over who comes into your space because you invited them in to begin with by sharing these pieces of you. And therefore your audience can go, oh yes. Or some people can go, oh no. And you don't have to put forth any other extra energy to, you know, bring them all in. You're just inviting them into a space that is for them from you. Right, yeah. And they have to feel like it's for them. Yes. Right? And this is, that's where the skillset comes in how do you really create that space where people feel like they're welcome in that space? And you can do it. You can do it with cadence, you can do it with your choice of words, you can do it with, simple things like inflection and pausing and topics, right? Humor. There are a ton of tactics and strategies that, if you build into what it is you're delivering. You're going to resonate with the audience you're trying to bring into your experience. So, and making them feel that this is the thing, right? Like people react emotionally. Yeah. And even in business, people buy on emotion. They don't buy it because you've told them about all the great features of your products. They buy on a problem that they have or something that you've made them feel about what it is that you've delivered. So, yeah, how do you do that best? And storytelling has a lot of options to be able to make that happen. Yeah, for sure. Rob, I could talk to you forever about this, but I love this conversation that we've already had and a lot of the questions that you've posed that can continue on this conversation not only maybe at some point you and I have another episode, but also for those who are listening that they can have enough of understanding of why something like podcasting is so beautiful and so quote unquote profitable for them. But also what are those other, areas? How would they like that to be? How do they want to share? You know, what are the maybe. Insecurities or not so much just that, that they can strengthen to really ensure that that they feel confidence and comfortable sharing in that space. So thank you so much for again, spending time with us as we close out this episode. Is there anything else that you would like to share any pieces of wisdom or anything else that's coming forward for you? I think maybe one of the underlying themes here that has come up is don't be afraid to share other stuff, right? Like people are afraid to go off brand, so to speak. But if you have an interest in other things, right? Sports cards, garage sales, New York Jets, remember that part of the conversation. If you have an interest in other things, Yeah. Those are great topics to talk about and tell stories around. It isn't going to hurt your brand, it's going to help it. Personal brand or company brand, it's going to help it. And that's something that people have a hard time understanding, but it is coming around. People are starting to wrap their heads around it a little bit. So give it some consideration, right? Don't brush it off right away, give it some consideration because it really is powerful. Yeah. Rob, thank you, thank you, thank you so much. And listeners, everything that you need to purchase Rob's book, connect with him online as well as listen to his podcast, will all be in the show notes. Rob, again, thank you for spending your time and energy with us. It has been absolutely fantastic. Yeah, I appreciate you having me on. That was a good chat. Yeah, right? I love these. All right, everyone, we will see you next time. Bye. Music. All right, folks. Once again, thank you so much for listening to this epic episode. All of the resources and links connected to it will be in our show notes located on our website, morethanjust.buzzsprout.com. If you liked this episode, which I would be shocked if you did not, go ahead and hit that like, subscribe, review, and share. Also remember that this episode and all others have been made possible by financial contributions and support from listeners like you. So if you would like to hear more stories of how Epic Humans are more than just, pop on over to our GoFundMe and make a contribution. Also don't forget to follow us on Instagram at more than just podcasts. Thanks again! See you next time! Music.